Go Back   Socionics Forums > Ramble Mumble

Ramble Mumble Anything goes, but please make an effort to stay positive and keep it socionics related.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09/04/2012, 07:22 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default Ideals and typing

If I take the turbo xl test and fill in the options as I figure optimal or most ideal which type will come out in relation to socionics intertype relations?

In other words which relationship demonstrates the relationship between two individuals who consider each other ideal or?

EDIT; if the question above is possible to answer this might be a good way to determine your type because it is sometimes easier to fill in the options the way you consider ideal rather than the way you truly are.

EDIT 2; potential candidates for idealistic perception of each other or other in intertype relations brought out as candidates by own perception of relevance to the topic - Relations of Activity, Relations of Semi-Duality, Conflicting Relations, Super-Ego Relations, Contrary Relations, Look-A-Like Relations, Relations of Benefit, Relations of Supervision.

EDIT 3; another point of view could be that people that are considered ideal are people that are perceived as someone in a higher social rank a la Relations of Benefit and Relations of Supervision hence the highlighting of mentioned intertype relations. my point is that if you fill out the turbo xl test questions in a manner you consider ideal you might come out with the type that is your Benefactor or Supervisor. This could be a way to distinguish your type if that is something you experience difficulties with.

EDIT 4; the whole thing could probably be done in reverse to find the intertype that you find the least ideal

Last edited by Zeus; 10/04/2012 at 12:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09/04/2012, 07:52 PM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

I like your question. It seems to probe into the essence, of the realm, of Socionika.

When taking into account the Jungian view that type is the result of conscious attitudes; we can then see how the type is the product of ideals crystalizing into reality.

The values; that is, what we deem to be valuable in a person, are the behavioral patterns that we emulate. The conscious life is therefore the active nature as opposed to the passive nature. The attitudes represent the role models we look up to, etcetera. And when a role model fails to be present, we attach to the one which most resembles our ideal. These are typically relations that are semi-compatible or asymmetrical. As we mature these ideals become more self sufficient and cohesive and develop into an authentic, self-sufficient identity.


The problem nowadays is that people don't develop their own psychological attitudes. There is no active psychological work. People don't want to work on themselves. Instead they passively wax and wane, always at the mercy of the external reality. Because of this it is difficult to find a person who really represents an authentic, pure psychological type. Most fester with weeds and their minds are like unkempt lawns or diseased sewers. The inner seed, the monad, does not bloom.

To put it simply, the ideal is your true type, your monad, shining through the cold wintry haze of our current dark age. This is because the type is the result of conscious attitudes which, even if seemingly scattered and disparate, define the course of our lives.

When duals unite they share the same conscious life. One dual does not simply 'take care' of the other, but they become one and the same thing.

The active is always represented by the sun. The sun is a center of gravity which gives light. The passive is represented by the moon, which is a dead planet and which represents the night.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09/04/2012, 09:12 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelStayer View Post
I like your question. It seems to probe into the essence, of the realm, of Socionika.

When taking into account the Jungian view that type is the result of conscious attitudes; we can then see how the type is the product of ideals crystalizing into reality.

The values; that is, what we deem to be valuable in a person, are the behavioral patterns that we emulate. The conscious life is therefore the active nature as opposed to the passive nature. The attitudes represent the role models we look up to, etcetera. And when a role model fails to be present, we attach to the one which most resembles our ideal. These are typically relations that are semi-compatible or asymmetrical. As we mature these ideals become more self sufficient and cohesive and develop into an authentic, self-sufficient identity.


The problem nowadays is that people don't develop their own psychological attitudes. There is no active psychological work. People don't want to work on themselves. Instead they passively wax and wane, always at the mercy of the external reality. Because of this it is difficult to find a person who really represents an authentic, pure psychological type. Most fester with weeds and their minds are like unkempt lawns or diseased sewers. The inner seed, the monad, does not bloom.

To put it simply, the ideal is your true type, your monad, shining through the cold wintry haze of our current dark age. This is because the type is the result of conscious attitudes which, even if seemingly scattered and disparate, define the course of our lives.

When duals unite they share the same conscious life. One dual does not simply 'take care' of the other, but they become one and the same thing.

The active is always represented by the sun. The sun is a center of gravity which gives light. The passive is represented by the moon, which is a dead planet and which represents the night.
The result of your ideal characteristics is your own type you say. Do you think this is applyable to both socionics and mbti tests and theory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnality View Post
The result of your ideal characteristics is your own type you say. Do you think this is applyable to both socionics and mbti tests and theory?
This suggests that your ideal type is your identical which has not been brought up yet. I am wondering if this method of typing could be applied to description identification aswell? The description you find most ideal is your own type in other words

Last edited by Nocturnality; 09/04/2012 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10/04/2012, 03:03 AM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnality View Post
The result of your ideal characteristics is your own type you say. Do you think this is applyable to both socionics and mbti tests and theory?
In a general sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnality View Post
This suggests that your ideal type is your identical which has not been brought up yet. I am wondering if this method of typing could be applied to description identification aswell? The description you find most ideal is your own type in other words
I think that is a good idea with some real potential.

But there are some ideas that may need to be left by the wayside, particularly the idea that "Type does not change" because, without going to deep into it, this is a very limiting bias that can never be proven in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10/04/2012, 10:35 AM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

these are my ideal types

Socionics Type Assistant: Normal mode: ESTJ Reversed mode: ESFx Combined mode: ESxj Extended summary ESFP/ESTP

Socionics Type Assistant Turbo: ESTJ

Socionics Type Assistant Turbo /// XL: ESFJ

16 Type Quiz (www.personalitycafe.com): ESTJ

Cognitive Quiz (www.personalitycafe.com) ESFJ

my ideal type is clearly ESxx

the next step from here would be going to www.wikisocion.org and check which quadra i identify the most with or identifying which set of mbti functions i identify more with via http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/. this is where the real work begins but the possible type has already been narrowed down from 16 to 4

Socionics Quadras
ESFj = alpha
ESTp = beta
ESFp = gamma
ESTj = delta

MBTI Functions
ESFJ = Fe Si Ne Ti
ESTP = Se Ti Fe Ni
ESFP = Se Fi Te Ni
ESTJ = Te Si Ne Fi

bias is really interesting and is showing itself now. i constantly have the intuitive types in the back of my head as "ideals" but according to testing they arent my ideals

just a fun note i tend to idealize alpha males/females and i might have stumbled into the four quadras alphas just a thought. if one would put four people of these four types in a room you would get an interesting dynamic

Last edited by Nocturnality; 10/04/2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13/04/2012, 09:30 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

Is the silence a sign of disinterest or a common understanding of the topic?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14/04/2012, 05:15 AM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnality View Post
Is the silence a sign of disinterest or a common understanding of the topic?
I find this quite thought provoking for a number of reasons. In my opinion there are many complexities which make me step back to ponder.

For example, using the Turbo test to select one's ideals made me think a bit. In my opinion the Turbo test is overly simplistic and has a residual bias which makes it difficult to confidently decide between options.

I took the turbo XL using your method and the result was that ESFj is my ideal. In my opinion this is very intriguing for a number of reasons. Principally that I consider myself an introverted thinking type with intuition(though I have issues with the J/P dichotomy as it is represented on this website). Before gaining this result I hypothesized that an ideal was likely to resemble both a combination of the dual and the identical because, ultimately, the dual and the identical are the same thing though one side is the subconscious of the other. When I took the test I did so in a detached manner, off-the-cuff. I did not expect any particular result, even though I had some initial hypotheses which I did not think would result using the turbo XL test.

Logically a superior person has a healthy balance between all functions, but that the arrangement of functions must be logical( extraverted irrational must pair with introverted rational and vice versa, etc.)

The dual behaviors are best integrated into the conscious mind by exposure to the dual or a 'work on oneself'. The ideal of such a person will equal a balance between the identical and the dual.

http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_tur...tml?E6S20F4j44

some of the preferences in the test I left unanswered because i felt that they could not be answered or were not appropriate, not correctly formulated or were unworthy of answering, etcetera.

It seems that there are some problems with this method because all tests carry a human element which can be flawed and not compatible with alternative methods of testing such as this one. But despite this I think that the results are interesting and that this idea you have could be developed further.

We are the authors of our own destinies.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 17/04/2012, 05:55 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelStayer View Post
I find this quite thought provoking for a number of reasons. In my opinion there are many complexities which make me step back to ponder.

For example, using the Turbo test to select one's ideals made me think a bit. In my opinion the Turbo test is overly simplistic and has a residual bias which makes it difficult to confidently decide between options.

I took the turbo XL using your method and the result was that ESFj is my ideal. In my opinion this is very intriguing for a number of reasons. Principally that I consider myself an introverted thinking type with intuition(though I have issues with the J/P dichotomy as it is represented on this website). Before gaining this result I hypothesized that an ideal was likely to resemble both a combination of the dual and the identical because, ultimately, the dual and the identical are the same thing though one side is the subconscious of the other. When I took the test I did so in a detached manner, off-the-cuff. I did not expect any particular result, even though I had some initial hypotheses which I did not think would result using the turbo XL test.

Logically a superior person has a healthy balance between all functions, but that the arrangement of functions must be logical( extraverted irrational must pair with introverted rational and vice versa, etc.)

The dual behaviors are best integrated into the conscious mind by exposure to the dual or a 'work on oneself'. The ideal of such a person will equal a balance between the identical and the dual.

http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_tur...tml?E6S20F4j44

some of the preferences in the test I left unanswered because i felt that they could not be answered or were not appropriate, not correctly formulated or were unworthy of answering, etcetera.

It seems that there are some problems with this method because all tests carry a human element which can be flawed and not compatible with alternative methods of testing such as this one. But despite this I think that the results are interesting and that this idea you have could be developed further.

We are the authors of our own destinies.
Are you absolutely certain of your own type?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 17/07/2012, 09:56 PM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

I am so sorry that I did not reply to this earlier. I am on a long "expedition" and have just now got access to a computer.

To answer your question:
I am not convinced of my type. I think that I am a type with strong introverted thinking and intuition, but am open to other possibilities. I think that no one really is and that will be so until type can be empirically proven.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23/07/2012, 10:39 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelStayer View Post
I am so sorry that I did not reply to this earlier. I am on a long "expedition" and have just now got access to a computer.

To answer your question:
I am not convinced of my type. I think that I am a type with strong introverted thinking and intuition, but am open to other possibilities. I think that no one really is and that will be so until type can be empirically proven.
Please describe how the functions feel in a concrete reality based way. If you can't describe all the functions describe introverted thinking and intuition.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06/10/2012, 05:57 PM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

Introverted thinking is a rebellion against or a resistance to contemporary thinking(which is also introverted feeling, but introverted feeling does not attempt to supplant thinking with feeling but instead it strives to reformulate an original perspective which is contrary to the conventions of thinking. It is of a purer type. So instead of "adding" to the norms it actually simplifies them through subtraction of unnecessary details. For example, extraverted thinking complicates reality, constantly adding rules and laws as circumstances demand, convoluting reality, whereas introverted thinking seeks to isolate itself and focus on one point and perfect it. This may be construed as thinking in general for some, but in my opinion introverted thinking also carries a sense of profundity and mystery, one could say even mythological, which does not attach itself to extraverted thinking. Introverted thinking tends to maintain its attachment to its source, as well. So an idea developed via introverted thinking usually has an individual attached to it whereas with extraverted thinking it pertains to common knowledge. I'll add that I think it is possible, because of the introverted preference, for Introverted Thinking to also create convolutions and unnecessary complications, especially in a highly reductionistic extraverted thinking culture/context. In this case I think it may take on schizoid characteristics and that is something we see often. It may go off on tangents and seem "too deep" The introverted attitude can very easily harm the individual simply to maintain its autonomy and we find cases of that all over the place with people who go too deep into their inner world of thoughts and build up all sorts of complicated frameworks of logic which really do not stand the test of reality.

As for intuition; we find something which distinguishes itself from the physical. Jung says intuition is where a thing came from and where it is going. One could say it rebels against the physical. It sees the totality of the past, present and future. It knows more than what currently is displayed. When this is introverted it seeks self understanding and when it is extraverted it pertains to the outside would. I think that extraverted intuition may seem more adventurous and charismatic, going about exploring and doing all sorts of things, whereas introverted intuition will be the opposite of charismatic but is just as likely to be adventurous, but these adventures will be more profound, pertaining to, perhaps, the sacred or mysterious. It will be about individuation as opposed to being an inspiration to the world like its extraverted counterpart.

Trying to make this further concrete I'll say that extraverted thinkers are often the active, positive thinkers we see in the context of 'the real world'. They are very involved and dominant in their fields of activity. They are always ''on task'' Contrary to this we often find that the introverted thinkers may find themselves in similar roles but they tend toward being unhappy with their work and instead always seem to be working on something of their own 'on the side' and their job is merely a means to an end.

With introverted intuitives we find people who have taken on their role as an inward motivation, so you find that they are more likely to be comfortable with their role and have a power and influence not present in an introverted thinker. They exist where they are because they brought themselves there. They may loathe the whole work atmosphere, but they have the inner power to dominate it because they 'found their place'. Contrary to this the extraverted intuitive is more spontaneous and is there ''in passing''. They will seem inspiring and chaotic and radical whereas the introverted intuitive will seem more self-controlled and be more conservative. The introverted intuitive will seem more permanent whereas the extraverted intuitive will seem like he isn't going to last.

Last edited by HotelStayer; 06/10/2012 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12/10/2012, 02:12 AM
HotelStayer HotelStayer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnality View Post
Please describe how the functions feel in a concrete reality based way. If you can't describe all the functions describe introverted thinking and intuition.
Extroverted and Introverted sensing differ in that Introverted Sensing involves reacting against convential physical reality. The extroverted sensing attitude is that you have to be big and strong and useful. Introverted Sensing is different because it reacts against that, not because it seeks denials and justifications against it, but because it has or is somehow aware of the inevitable limitations and so seeks unconventional comforts and stimulations. It searches for something more subtle yet always tangible. While is about the ''power play'' and vigilance the doesn't take that course and instead is about immersing oneself in the experience- letting the experience immerse them so they can palatize it and absorb the subtleties.

In a more tangible way I'd say that is more likely to sit around a cigar bar or cook fine cuisine or become an impressionist painter(to convey the experience), whereas will seek dominance and the overcoming of obstacles through popular recreation like sports or weight lifting or boxing etcetera.

as for feeling, that is something quite easy to find the difference between. All feeling types like to maintain harmony with others, I think. But their approaches are very difference. easily picks up the common social etiquette and wants for itself weddings, parties, gatherings which are convential. is more of a 'good mood' sort of thing and when people are happy they are all working together for the same thing, right? So that's essentially what strives for- a group of people happy working for the same goal.

is about finding individual purpose and meaning, so though it enjoys it really has an uncontrollable need to reflect on its own purpose and place. I think types never separate themselves from the circumstance, they weigh down the situation with their own inner reflection, considering always how they relate to the matter at hand.

To put it simply, without these lengthy elaborations which are unscientific and vague(and predictably common) I think that Jung's definition of the functions is the best:

Thinking=what it is
Feeling=whether it is agreeable or not

sensing=that it is there
intuition=where it came from and where it is going

I also like an old socionics analogy:

thinking=matter
feeling=energy

sensing=space
intuition=time
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07/04/2013, 08:52 AM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default

I have to ponder the ideal type thing alittle.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08/04/2013, 06:38 AM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default Ideal type

According to http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_tur...65399195ms4077
my ideal type is ESFJ. That is my Super-Ego. Makes sense.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10/06/2013, 08:22 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default HotelStayer was probably right

For you who don't know, HotelStayer is probably right. For now I am typed as ESFJ, precisely as HotelStayer suggested.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 23/06/2013, 10:30 AM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default Super-Ego or Identical for now

ENTj according to recent testing im only 21 so my 1st and 2nd function just started developing.. it is probably not very helpful
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 23/06/2013, 06:10 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default And ofcourse it is the Look-a-like relation I was looking for...

TURBO /// XL instructions:

choose (yes button) what sounds the best

utilize the unsure button when you are unsure, try to not abuse it, then it wont work.

and obviously when you think something sounds bad use the remaining button, (no)

My result is ESFj and I am 99,99% certain of my type being ESTj
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 23/06/2013, 09:37 PM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default Socionics Type Assistant TURBO

Instructions:

choose (yes button) what sounds the best (count points if it comes to that)

You are the type opposing your result in this table (Look-a-like relations):

ENTp - ESTp
ISFp - INFp
ESFj - ESTj
INTj - INFj
ENFj - ENTj
ISTj - ISFj
ESFp - ENFp
INTp - ISTp
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 24/06/2013, 01:34 AM
ValerieUGA's Avatar
ValerieUGA ValerieUGA is offline
One hot piece of INTj ass
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 170
Default Is this the force?

I'll look at it later, young Jedi.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 24/06/2013, 07:30 AM
Nocturnality Nocturnality is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Default Relevant information, same subject, im lazy I don't wanna have to do it again

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...755#post955755
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 SOCIONICS.COM