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Question #1237817612Monday, 23-Mar-2009
Category: Theory Models INTj Socionics
Since there are obvious conflicts between MBTI and Socionics, does this mean that one has to be right and the other one has to be wrong? Or is it possible that both are correct? This is so frustrating for me because I seem to fit both descriptions of INTJ and INTj. Now I'm trying to figure out if I actually use Intuition or Thinking as my lead function. However, it seems like both of them are in my head. Does this violate the theory in Socionics at all? -- Anonymous INTj
Your Answers: 1+ 13+
A1 I'm not as well-informed on the differences between MBTI and Socionics as some around here, but my understanding is that while the way MBTI orders the functions is different from Socionics (so that MBTI INTJ is Socionics INTp ), the overall descriptions of the MBTI types often match up better with the Socionics types. So the MBTI description of INTJ may be more like Socionics INTj, while the MBTI order of functions for INTJ is the same as Socionics INTp. But like I said, I'm not very familiar with the differences between Socionics and MBTI. I try to ignore MBTI as much as I can, as it seems like a rather messy and poorly constructed system, compared to Socionics. -- Krig (INTj)
A2 Extroverted functions are what people in the world primarily observe in others, and MBTI classifies type based on this leading function, the function that operates on the outside world. MBTI is therefore correct from an observation perspective, which is useful in understanding distant, business-like behaviour. This may be why corporate America has adopted MBTI. However for introverts, this leading extroverted function is not the dominant function so Socionics is correct from a data handling and processing perspective, which is far more appropriate when analyzing intimate relationships. When reading MBTI descriptions, one has to differentiate between behaviours that people may observe in themselves and processes that actually drive their conciousness. -- I/O
A3 If I'm not well familiar with the people that I'm talking to, they would get mostly my thinking function but I would become more intuitive once I know them well. That's the major reason why I believe I'm an INTJ in MBTI model. On the other hand, the reason why I think I'm an INTj and not an INTp in Socionics is because of the "hidden agenda". To be healthy is much more important to me than to love someone. Is there anything wrong with this analysis? -- Anonymous INTj
A4 If you think out loud (ask a lot of questions and interactively test your logic with others before deciding) and prefer to apply solutions that have already been tested then your rationalization is likely extroverted, and others would directly observe your logic in action. If you frequently ignore existing methodologies and try to produce your own solutions also disregarding what others may suggest (ask few questions but look closer at your own impressions) then your rationalization is likely introverted, and others would only observe your logical conclusions about the information your intuition is feeding you. It may appear to you like logic in action, but in reality, it a logical summary of your intuition. -- I/O
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A5 A3: MBTI is what's wrong in your analysis. Socionics tells you everything you need to know. -- Anonymous
A6 They could both just be wrong. Socionics more thorough though not necessarily any more wholesome in how you might take it. Socionics is more... imposing and it has more of a tendancy to typecast imo. MBTI, can be taken lightly, it doesn't claim its accuracy as much, so its not any less right really. They are both wrong, MBTI isn't as thoroughly developed and less meaningful, but Socionics might have even more holes to it. The original barebones Socionics tells you nothing, it just makes you wonder, then people make advances and they make sense, but many don't, so you can never tell if its b.s. or not. Maybe it is all just silly categorical speculation. The tests always give me a fairly modest "intp" score. But Socionics and MBTI...Socionics makes its types very clear, MBTI...some people make it more refined in a way that contradicts socionics, but the basic MBTI can be interpreted however you want. But MBTI, I often take, to be measuring slightly different things. Some parts of MBTI seem to measure the innate, and some of it is surface, same with Socionics in a different pattern. Lol, that was vague. -- Anonymous
A7 @A6 - that's just the sort of thing an INTp would say. -- Krig (INTj)
A8 What about Keirsey? Under his system, I get different results from socionics and MBTI, and find his description a better fit. -- A Keirsey INTP
A9 From experience I have found a strong correlation between socionics and MBTI. An INFP according to MBTI fits the socionics INFp descriptions well and vice versa. I have noticed the same thing for INTP, ISFP, ISFJ, ISTP, INFJ and INTJs as well. Maybe its just me but I can't see the MBTI IXXP being a socionics IXXj or changing any letters for that matter. -- Anonymous
A10 Descriptions are great, but a person's type can only be known through the functions they use. Even though two people might have the exact same functions (ie. type), they may find that two very different descriptions would describe them. There may sometimes be correlation with 4-letter words, and there may not be with different systems. In any case, the underlying functions themselves remain the same, and an understanding of what the functions actually are and what they mean for a person is the only accurate way to understand type. If someone says they are "XXXX" they must ask themselves "what does this mean about the way I perceive information and make decisions about that info?" A description won't tell them that. -- INTj laddie
A11 Definitions of functions from Socionics or from MBTI, as found in these 2 sites are obviously showing that both systems are totally different. It is as asking "What is correct and what is wrong: a classification according to colors or a classification according to shapes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics http://www.bestfittype.com/functionsoftype.html Socionics: Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent traits) of a thing, estimating opportunities and possibilities for people and things, and visualizing potential outcomes of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable. MBTI: Ne sees connections and possibilities in the external world, generates multiple possibilities, focuses on how things and relationships could be. Socionics: Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the inevitability of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character. MBTI: Ni sees connections and possibilities in the internal world, views situations from multiple perspectives until the “best” is perceived, recognizes and values symbols. Socionics: Se is responsible for the perception, control, defense, and acquisition of space, territory, and control. It observes outward appearances, estimates whether forces are in alignment or conflict, and uses strength of will and power-based methods to achieve purposes. Se understands territory and physical aggression. It is also the function of contact and apprehension of qualia. MBTI: Se objectively collects data through the five senses, focuses on the current moment, focuses on experiences that provide the most stimulation. Socionics: Si is responsible for perception of physical sensations; questions of comfort, coziness, and pleasure; and a sense of harmony and acclimation with one's environment (especially physical). Si understand how well a person or thing's behavior agrees with its nature as well as the differences between comfortable behaviors and positions and uncomfortable ones. MBTI: Si experiences present situations triggering perceptions of past situations, including the internal responses to the past situation, compares the present to the past, maintains objects and traditions. Socionics: Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm. MBTI: Fe initiates and maintains social networks, organizes the people in harmonious social networks to complete valuable activities, seeks to maintain relationships. Socionics: Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship. MBTI: Fi seeks to understand what is truly important: their deeply held values, makes value based decisions to maintain personal integrity, helps others maintain their integrity. Socionics: Te is efficiency of an action, technical processes, the accomplishment of work, the efficient and prudent use of resources, factual accuracy, and the acquisition of relevant and useful information. Te understands the difference between effective and ineffective behavior when performing a procedure or accomplishing a task, and aspires to increase the frequency of productive outcomes within a system. MBTI: Te organizes the resources necessary to achieve measurable goals, objectively and logically organizes people and resources, evaluates performance against measurable standards. Socionics: Ti is responsible for understanding logic and structure, categorizations, ordering and priorities, logical analysis and distinctions, logical explanations, and the derivation of true statements from "self-evident" rules. Ti interprets information according to how it fits into a system. Ti is particularly aware of syntactic correctness and how concepts relate to each other in meaning and structure. MBTI: Ti organizes ideas and information into functional categories, builds an understanding of how things and ideas work, uses categories and understandings to make decisions. So, if "N" and "T" are nearly similar in both systems, "S" and "F" are almost totally different. -- piccolo_michel
A12 Socionics functions are closer to Jungs function, and socionics also applies the same order of functions to both extraverts and introverts, so in that respect socionics is closer, however there appears to be so many definitions of these socionics function in the West that one unfortunately has to do some work on their own to get to grips with them. -- Cyclops
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