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Old 09/08/2009, 10:06 AM
noler noler is offline
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Lightbulb Best marriage / life-partnership relations - Duality?? Contrary??

Hello! So is Duality really the "optimal" relationship?
http://www.socionics.com/rel/dlt.htm

I guess I've been among those without Dual interaction during childhood. For me the stongest match has always seemed to be Contrary:
http://www.socionics.com/rel/cnt.htm

But as mentioned, it requires full isolation of the couple from the world. As long as they are alone - I think those are the most stimulating relationships for each side. Somehow, Duality is stable, but limited; not challenging enough to create growth. And Contrary relations are very unstable in short terms, but if they could work on the long run - partners could get the best out of each other; really much more than they could expect they are capable of.

What do you think? Stability or growth? Or something else?
I think when the environment is very unstable, I'd bet on Duality, but if the environment is stable - I'd prefer Contrary relationships.
Maybe you have a better suggestion??
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Old 09/08/2009, 02:24 PM
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As many of the "warning" areas of the duality descriptions state, duality does not equate to a perfect relationship, they're other factors involved such as beliefs, values, goals, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not challenging enough to create growth" because I don't view challenging someone to cause anything but conflict.

Duals do contribute to each others self-growth but it's done more naturally and comfortably, rather than trying to change the other into something that they're not, and don't want to be.
Bad intertype relationships just lead to under appreciation and feelings of inadequacy, in this case you're not actually growing but stagnating.

Not to mention that no one will go through life without any bumps in the road, and it's during those times that one most needs their dual

If you feel that the type listed as your dual is not alluring or comforting enough it's more likely that you have either mistyped yourself or/and mistyped those whom you typed as your dual
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Old 09/08/2009, 06:49 PM
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I am in a contrary relationship myself right now (ENFp, INFp) and it is working very well. In six months we've had one minor fight that lasted about a day. We spend a lot of time alone together, which is great. We don't truly share many friends, most of our mutual friends are closer to one or the other. When we're with others one of us usually fades into the background. She is the introvert, so she doesn't mind that much, but I make sure to never impede on her spotlight if she wants it. I starkly refuse to compete with her friends for her attention, and rarely will I compete for her time (she does have one friend who I can't stand who tries to goad me into this sort of competition). Instead, I offer to tag along or just do something else with my friends while I wait for her to get back. She is very social and loves her friends, but since she is an introvert she requires some time alone away them, which means I get plenty of time with alone with her. In social situations she can be very uptight about things she deems inappropriate, such as PDA or sexual innuendos. I usually push the boundaries of her social norms and try to get her to loosen up a bit.

Basically I think we would both agree that we are best when left alone together, and when we aren't I use my knowledge of the unstability of our relationship according to socionics to make sure these situations don't become a problem.
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Old 09/08/2009, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
I am in a contrary relationship myself right now (ENFp, INFp) and it is working very well. In six months we've had one minor fight that lasted about a day. We spend a lot of time alone together, which is great. We don't truly share many friends, most of our mutual friends are closer to one or the other. When we're with others one of us usually fades into the background. She is the introvert, so she doesn't mind that much, but I make sure to never impede on her spotlight if she wants it. I starkly refuse to compete with her friends for her attention, and rarely will I compete for her time (she does have one friend who I can't stand who tries to goad me into this sort of competition). Instead, I offer to tag along or just do something else with my friends while I wait for her to get back. She is very social and loves her friends, but since she is an introvert she requires some time alone away them, which means I get plenty of time with alone with her. In social situations she can be very uptight about things she deems inappropriate, such as PDA or sexual innuendos. I usually push the boundaries of her social norms and try to get her to loosen up a bit.

Basically I think we would both agree that we are best when left alone together, and when we aren't I use my knowledge of the unstability of our relationship according to socionics to make sure these situations don't become a problem.


this was very helpful to me, as I am a ESFP dating a ISFP and feel that when we are alone, there isn't a single thing that I don't absolutely adore about our relationship. However, when we are hanging out all together with friends things do change, but I have been trying to use my knowledge of contrary/extinguishing relations to not let those natural reactions unfold too crazy or I am careful to not bring out my strong side, and yes I have been trying hard to not steal the spotlight from him in company
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Old 10/08/2009, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ArielPink View Post
this was very helpful to me, as I am a ESFP dating a ISFP and feel that when we are alone, there isn't a single thing that I don't absolutely adore about our relationship. However, when we are hanging out all together with friends things do change, but I have been trying to use my knowledge of contrary/extinguishing relations to not let those natural reactions unfold too crazy or I am careful to not bring out my strong side, and yes I have been trying hard to not steal the spotlight from him in company
Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by that phrase?
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Old 11/08/2009, 11:11 AM
noler noler is offline
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I'm not sure what you mean by "not challenging enough to create growth" because I don't view challenging someone to cause anything but conflict.
I will explain. The "dual" type is actually my own "shadow" type, and I am their own "shadow". This means under some circumstances (or even by will) we could transform into each other. Thus we are a little too alike, even if we are complete opposites (hope that makes sense). Yes, we get along perfect, but I don't think this is enough to grow, if we are too similar.

By the way, I'm not sure if people here differ between Socionics and MBTI. I assume:
(Socionics) IXXp , IXXj = IXXJ , IXXP (MBTI)

Thus, in MBTI, Contrary relations are:
EXXP - IXXJ , IXXP - EXXJ ------> they go between quadras: Alpha-Gamma, Beta-Delta.

While the EXXX-IXXX relationships stay in the same quadra. The types in one quadra share the same set of cognitive functions, but in different orders. I think, if one wants to grow, there is a strong need for inter-quadra connection, and combining the four cognitive functions with their opposites. Maybe I'm not getting it right? Please help me if you understand it better?
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Old 11/08/2009, 09:37 PM
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In Quasi relationships (opposing quadras) there are many misunderstandings I don't think that would facilitate growth. http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...Quasi-identity


Your dual sees where you need help and knows how to help you without annoying you by hitting your weak point (or polar). I think this would make you more receptive to change.
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Duality

To have a dual for unstable environments and contray for stable environments you would need 2 life partners
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Old 11/08/2009, 11:56 PM
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I will explain. The "dual" type is actually my own "shadow" type, and I am their own "shadow". This means under some circumstances (or even by will) we could transform into each other. Thus we are a little too alike, even if we are complete opposites (hope that makes sense). Yes, we get along perfect, but I don't think this is enough to grow, if we are too similar.

By the way, I'm not sure if people here differ between Socionics and MBTI. I assume:
(Socionics) IXXp , IXXj = IXXJ , IXXP (MBTI)

Thus, in MBTI, Contrary relations are:
EXXP - IXXJ , IXXP - EXXJ ------> they go between quadras: Alpha-Gamma, Beta-Delta.

While the EXXX-IXXX relationships stay in the same quadra. The types in one quadra share the same set of cognitive functions, but in different orders. I think, if one wants to grow, there is a strong need for inter-quadra connection, and combining the four cognitive functions with their opposites. Maybe I'm not getting it right? Please help me if you understand it better?
Socionics =/= MBTT. Myers-Briggs is built on dichotomy preferences; whereas Socionics is built on IM element preferences. The latter is much more complex. There isn't any smooth conversion between the two, by the way. Concerning the relations you cited: Contrary relations do not exist in MBTT, and Shadow relations do not exist in Socionics; so please don't use the theories' relational terminology interchangably, because it doesn't work. Is your preference of "Contrary" relations in reference to the idea in MBTT that types should share 3 letters?

As far as Contrary relationships go:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikisocion
Extinguishment is an intertype relation between members of opposing quadras. Extinguishment relations are also known as Contrary relations.

Relations of extinguishment are characterized by an interest in the same kinds of things, but partners approach it in a fundamentally different and often incomprehensible way. Many people note a certain draw in these relations, as if the other person possessed some dual-like qualities, but never materializes into a dual. In trying to close the distance and get to know the other person closely, partners are very often frustrated and thwarted in their attempts by the other person's unexpected and out-of-sync reactions. In these relations it is very hard to maintain an organized and stable relationship, due to the promising, but continually frustrating interpersonal dynamic.


Where these relations can become especially unstable is in the case of a third person/party being involved in the relation. What happens is both Contrary partners attempt to exude their strong sides, which are in opposition to each others' strengths.


In many cases the Introvert partner becomes cautious and distant in formal interaction; the Extravert partner becomes especially vulnerable, taking careful notice of his/her own actions, and thus becoming highly suspicious about the entire relation. This disoriented sense of communication tends to build more and more as Contrary partners continue to interact together.
As far as what duals do for each other: http://socionics.us/practice/duality.shtml

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Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
Duals do contribute to each others self-growth but it's done more naturally and comfortably, rather than trying to change the other into something that they're not, and don't want to be.
Bad intertype relationships just lead to under appreciation and feelings of inadequacy, in this case you're not actually growing but stagnating.
QFT.

The idea of duality is that you are with someone who looks for precisely the areas that you are good at and appreciates them in you. This encourages you to be yourself and take over the areas that you are naturally good at, which leaves them free to take over the areas they are naturally good at.

As for bad intertype relations, I Supervise my mother. She sees me as lazy and unmotivated, and I get irritated when she talks about how I need to work and/or work harder, be more motivated, etc.
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Last edited by Kanerou; 11/08/2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12/08/2009, 03:40 AM
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Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by that phrase?
What I meant by "bring out my strong side" (in the company of others), is that, I noticed we almost compete with eachother when in a group of friends..for me that would be: taking the stage when he is trying to tell a story; or it goes: him poking rude jokes at me, and me retaliating with a stronger force of making fun of him and then he retaliates back and it just goes on and on...of course it's not that bad but still...something like that. contrary.
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Old 12/08/2009, 05:55 PM
noler noler is offline
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That's very frustrating if Socionics and MBTI cannot be bridged... Everything seems the same, only the Introverted types flip P/J, or don't, in some aspects.

What MBTI lacks is an intertype chart, such as this one:
http://www.socionics.com/rel/relcht.htm

Isn't it possible to translate it to MBTI?

What I meant about duality is - it has exactly the same cognitive functions, for example:
Fi-Ne-Si-Te --- INFP-ESTJ --- Te-Si-Ne-Fi -----> It's the same thing, but reversed.

What these types actually need is connection with their functional complementary:
Fe-Ni-Se-Ti --- ENFJ-ISTP --- Ti-Se-Ni-Fe

Which seems to be called Contrary in Socionics (after J/P flip of introverts). If this relation is not Contrary, then what is it? For example, INFP-ENFJ in MBTI? According to some MBTI sites, and the congnitive functions theory, it should be a perfect match, but I can't find its representation in Socionics...

Quote:
To have a dual for unstable environments and contray for stable environments you would need 2 life partners
Heh. I meant that I should think deeply about my future and my life to decide which type of life partner would be the better choice. If I was the kind of person to rush ahead with 2 life partners, I wouldn't even bother to think, and ask here. (:
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Old 12/08/2009, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by noler View Post
That's very frustrating if Socionics and MBTI cannot be bridged... Everything seems the same, only the Introverted types flip P/J, or don't, in some aspects.

What MBTI lacks is an intertype chart, such as this one:
http://www.socionics.com/rel/relcht.htm

Isn't it possible to translate it to MBTI?

What I meant about duality is - it has exactly the same cognitive functions, for example:
Fi-Ne-Si-Te --- INFP-ESTJ --- Te-Si-Ne-Fi -----> It's the same thing, but reversed.

What these types actually need is connection with their functional complementary:
Fe-Ni-Se-Ti --- ENFJ-ISTP --- Ti-Se-Ni-Fe

Which seems to be called Contrary in Socionics (after J/P flip of introverts). If this relation is not Contrary, then what is it? For example, INFP-ENFJ in MBTI? According to some MBTI sites, and the congnitive functions theory, it should be a perfect match, but I can't find its representation in Socionics...
It really isn't that simple. The four letter code is simply there as a guide for people who know MBTI better than socionics. The dichotomies are not the same, the functions aren't either.
Here are some articles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.socionics.us/intro.shtml View Post
Socionics and the MBTI

At some point Augusta and her associates learned of Isabel Briggs Myers' and her mother Katharine Cook Briggs' development of Jung's typology across the ocean in the United States. Newcomers to socionics in the West often have to face the difficulty of trying to distinguish between the two typologies. They are fundamentally different and cannot be treated as "the same types, but with different type names." Those who look deeply into socionics and the MBTI recognize that socionics' theoretical apparatus is more systematic and logical in nature and simply larger. Indeed, socionics was created by a "thinking" type, while the MBTI was created by "feeling" types (a quick review of sites on the two fields will make this clear). That is just the beginning of the differences. I personally, of course, find socionics to be a big improvement on the MBTI, but I'm sure there are ardent followers of the MBTI that hold the opposite opinion.

The four socionic dichotomies appear to be very similar to the dichotomies used by the MBTI system. However, close inquiry reveals that there are many subtle differences. If you assume the dichotomies are the same and equate each socionic type to an MBTI type, some socionic types will overlap to a large degree with their MBTI counterparts, others will partially overlap, and yet others will seem to be completely different. If the types were truly equivalent, a similar theory of intertype relations would have arisen in the MBTI system but there is none. On the whole, MBTI and socionics types seem to correlate in roughly 30% of cases. That is not nearly enough to consider the two typologies close approximations of each other.
http://www.socionics.com/articles/mbti.htm
http://www.socionics.com/articles/mbti-2.htm
http://www.socionics.com/articles/howto.htm
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=J/P_switch
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...sed_typologies
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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Old 12/08/2009, 07:47 PM
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That's very frustrating if Socionics and MBTI cannot be bridged... Everything seems the same, only the Introverted types flip P/J, or don't, in some aspects.
Everything is the same. The types are the same. The introverted types NEVER flip. There is no J/P switch and there never has been. It's really very simple if you only keep in mind that MBTI has got the functions of the introverted types wrong. The leading (dominant) function of an MBTI INFP is Ni, not Fi. And the descriptions of the functions in MBTI is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noler
What MBTI lacks is an intertype chart, such as this one:
http://www.socionics.com/rel/relcht.htm

Isn't it possible to translate it to MBTI?
It's exactly the same intertype relations in MBTI. There is no problem what so ever. The relations are identical. The Dual type of the INFP is the ESTP in MBTI too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noler
What I meant about duality is - it has exactly the same cognitive functions, for example:
Fi-Ne-Si-Te --- INFP-ESTJ --- Te-Si-Ne-Fi -----> It's the same thing, but reversed.
You just have to forget about the functions. The functions in MBTI is just crap. The type INFP is the Dual partner to the type ESTP and nothing else. It doesn't matter what "functions" they are supposed to have in MBTI here. The MBTI functions don't exist in the real types.

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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
The dichotomies are not the same, the functions aren't either.
Wrong. The dichotomies are exactly the same. The functions in MBTI are wrong, however (and they don't exist).

Last edited by Prometheus; 12/08/2009 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12/08/2009, 08:06 PM
noler noler is offline
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Wrong. The dichotomies are exactly the same. The functions in MBTI are wrong, however (and they don't exist).
Wow, thanks a lot. Are you sure? I have been living for quite a long time now using MBTI cognitive functions and analyzing people... and I was convinced everything is correct.

So you say, for example, that INFJ is Fe-Ni-Se-Ti, and ENFJ is Ni-Fe-Ti-Se? Reversed?

I will have to read more carefully also all the links from above, but I'm not sure I still get it... In any case, if MBTI wouldn't have any working inter-type chart, it becomes quite useless.
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Old 12/08/2009, 08:28 PM
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Wow, thanks a lot. Are you sure?
Yes, I'm sure. I have investigated this problem in depth for some years now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noler
I have been living for quite a long time now using MBTI cognitive functions and analyzing people... and I was convinced everything is correct.
In MBTI (or more accurately MBTT since MBTI is only a typing tool) they have "reformed" the functions so that they will fit the observed behavior and attitudes of the types. So when you read functional analyses made by MBTI practitioners or theorists, they seem okay. But they are different in Jung's typology, and they are different in Socionics. Socionics is much more in line with Jung's original descriptions of the functions, but even in the socionic community a lot of people get them wrong and misunderstand them, which leads to mistypings.

Quote:
So you say, for example, that INFJ is Fe-Ni-Se-Ti, and ENFJ is Ni-Fe-Ti-Se? Reversed?
No, an INFJ has Fi as leading function and Ne as auxiliary (creative). An ENFJ has, of course, an extraverted function as the leading one (Fe). If you look more closely, you will realize that the ordering of the third and fourth functions for the introverted types are the same in Socionics and MBTT. For example, the weakest function of both the INTp (ILI) and the INTP (in MBTI) is Fe, and they also describe the manifestations of that weak function in similar ways for that type.
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Old 12/08/2009, 08:50 PM
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So, from the following table:
MBTI Cognitive functions
INTP Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi
ISTP Ti Se Ni Fe Te Si Ne Fi
ENTJ Te Ni Se Fi Ti Ne Si Fe
ESTJ Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe
INTJ Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si
INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si
ENTP Ne Ti Fe Si Ni Te Fi Se
ENFP Ne Fi Te Si Ni Fe Ti Se
ISTJ Si Te Fi Ne Se Ti Fe Ni
ISFJ Si Fe Ti Ne Se Fi Te Ni
ESTP Se Ti Fe Ni Si Te Fi Ne
ESFP Se Fi Te Ni Si Fe Ti Ne
INFP Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti
ISFP Fi Se Ni Te Fe Si Ne Ti
ENFJ Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te
ESFJ Fe Si Ne Ti Fi Se Ni Te
Which lines are incorrect, should just the cognitive functions of P/J types be interchanged for the Introverts?

And also, it seems then that according to Socionics dual types are really both Ps or both Js (so called Irrational/Rational). I find it hard to accept that, because I think J+P should be necessary for the most complementary combos. One side to be more organized and directive than the other; if both are Ps or both are Js - there will be more problems and clashes, I expect. There seems to be a great attraction in MBTI among pairs of the kind:
ISTJ+ESTP , ISFP+ESFJ , ENFP+INFJ, and so on... but Socionics seems to reject that.
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Old 12/08/2009, 10:20 PM
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Which lines are incorrect, should just the cognitive functions of P/J types be interchanged for the Introverts?
First of all, the most important thing to realize is that "Ti" in MBTT doesn't have the same meaning as "" in Socionics or "introverted thinking" in Jung's typology, "Si" doesn't have the same meaning as "" in Socionics, etc. The functions, as they are defined in MBTT, does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noler
And also, it seems then that according to Socionics dual types are really both Ps or both Js (so called Irrational/Rational).
Yes, and since the types are identical in both systems, the same is true in MBTT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noler
I find it hard to accept that, because I think J+P should be necessary for the most complementary combos.
Well, then you just have to change your mind, because that is a false assumption of yours. For a Dual couple it's important that they have similar "life rhythms", and that requires that they are both P or both J. They must "live in the same world" so to say. That aspect of the differences between J and P types is also recognized by MBTI theorists, se for example what Lenore Thomson has written on the subject.

Quote:
One side to be more organized and directive than the other; if both are Ps or both are Js - there will be more problems and clashes, I expect.
No, the contrary is true. Read the descriptions of the intertype relations on this site, if you want to learn more about that. A very concrete practical problem that often arises in a J+P relation is the fact that a J type is usually an early bird, whereas a P type is usually a night owl by natural temperament.

Quote:
There seems to be a great attraction in MBTI among pairs of the kind:
ISTJ+ESTP , ISFP+ESFJ , ENFP+INFJ, and so on... but Socionics seems to reject that.
No, Socionics is fully aware of that phenomenon. Mirror relations are described in the intertype relations section on this site. That MBTI folks have discovered that Mirror types from the same quadra are attracted to each other is of course nothing strange. That's exactly what we should expect.
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Old 19/03/2011, 03:12 AM
I of the Potato I of the Potato is offline
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Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
As many of the "warning" areas of the duality descriptions state, duality does not equate to a perfect relationship, they're other factors involved such as beliefs, values, goals, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not challenging enough to create growth" because I don't view challenging someone to cause anything but conflict.

Duals do contribute to each others self-growth but it's done more naturally and comfortably, rather than trying to change the other into something that they're not, and don't want to be.
Bad intertype relationships just lead to under appreciation and feelings of inadequacy, in this case you're not actually growing but stagnating.

Not to mention that no one will go through life without any bumps in the road, and it's during those times that one most needs their dual

If you feel that the type listed as your dual is not alluring or comforting enough it's more likely that you have either mistyped yourself or/and mistyped those whom you typed as your dual
Exactly. Your conflictor will try to change you into something you are not and don't ever want to be and they wont appreciate you for the things you appreciate yourself for. You wont get praised when you deserve praise because they wont value the great things you have done. Your dual on the other hand will help turn you into the person you always wanted to be. They will appreciate all the things you like about yourself. If you say something you find funny they will laugh. Your conflictor wont get your jokes even when they are hilarious and you will end up thinking you aren't funny when you are. That was the case with my istj (conflictor) ex anyway. He just wasn't as clever as my istp badass hero.
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