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  #41  
Old 03/03/2006, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

And yet a high-functioning autistic child may memmorize entire books word for word, easily percieve mathematical principles and apply them, or play piano concertos after only hearing them played once.

Are they stupid, or socially dysfunctional?
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  #42  
Old 03/03/2006, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:

Are they stupid, or socially dysfunctional?
How did you come to this conlusion?
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  #43  
Old 03/03/2006, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

see, this is the problem. what counts? what are you measuring? are you measuring a general capacity to function/reason? If this is so it is most likely an intuitive conclusion which has no experimental validity.

If you are measuring the ability to accurately draw a building or the ability to solve(correctly) a math problem, then an autistic person could be considered intelligent in this regard but not others. I believe they call these people "savants".

But in general are autistic people "capable" like we are? no. If you want to consider normal to exception social skills as a form of intelligence then they(autistics) lack it.

See, the definition does not control you, you control the definition.
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  #44  
Old 03/03/2006, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

There is no conclusion. Otherwise there would have been a period there instead of a question mark.
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  #45  
Old 03/03/2006, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:
see, this is the problem. what counts? what are you measuring? are you measuring a general capacity to function/reason? If this is so it is most likely an intuitive conclusion which has no experimental validity.

If you are measuring the ability to accurately draw a building or the ability to solve(correctly) a math problem, then an autistic person could be considered intelligent in this regard but not others. I believe they call these people "savants".

But in general are autistic people "capable" like we are? no. If you want to consider normal to exception social skills as a form of intelligence then they(autistics) lack it.

See, the definition does not control you, you control the definition.
My point exactly. Thank you sweetie.
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  #46  
Old 03/03/2006, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
There is no conclusion. Otherwise there would have been a period there instead of a question mark.
Oh yeah, and this means you cannot summarise something with a question mark at the end, right? Well, English might not be my first language but I can see that you often have trouble with your word definitions. What will be the next thing you try? Picking up on my grammar and spelling mistakes to win this argument?

I don't think I wish to continue arguing with you on this subject anymore, since pointless arguing for the sake of arguing does not give me any pleasure whatsoever.
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  #47  
Old 03/03/2006, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

I wasn't trying to imply anything, nor was my statement a personal attack on you. You obviously speak wonderful English, and there was nothing in my statements to the contrary, nor was it my intent to draw that conclusion. I was asking you the question, in an effort to reach a *mutual* conclusion about the subject at hand-not about anything else.
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  #48  
Old 03/03/2006, 07:37 PM
alphaquerist alphaquerist is offline
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by SG
Quote:
I absolutely agree with Epic that an intelligence is the ability to solve problems.
What u are saying is true SG and if u notice I too have said something similar.
What I meant was that different problems require different intelligences. Without getting caught into a trap of verbal trickery of what was said and intended I'll write about what I actually saw implied in ur original post.

The implication as I understand is that u are strong in ur belief that ppl who believe unverifiable facts are too simple and lacking in intelligence.

The example u provided of bending physical objects with the power of the mind is actually possible with Transcendental Meditation.
A classic case of mind over matter
Try watching Buddhist monks practicing it. But they don't do it to exhibit their prowess so I don't know where u'll find one.

At the risk of sounding arguementative I'll repeat what I had written in an earlier post in the same thread , that belief and intelligence are not mutually exclusive concepts and both may co-exist for a variety of reasons.

Rational/cognitive existence will tell that the being is not needed and all of life and its meaning lies only in the being's ability to find/impose meaning on what it sees and on its life. This is intelligence.And I am stretching the limits of the meaning of the word here in trying to explain this.
Belief is when u think u are a part of society and that u contribute to it and are needed. (and funnily this keeps a lot of humanity "sane" and going)

This does not mean that I disregard intelligence (now whatever that has come to mean after so much discussion)
And one last thing - I felt like contributing to this topic because as Nyx put it somewhere , I too felt that the original stance of the post was leaning towards being judgemental.

Hope my opinions don't hurt anybody.
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  #49  
Old 03/03/2006, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by alphaquerist:

The implication as I understand is that u are strong in ur belief that ppl who believe unverifiable facts are too simple and lacking in intelligence.
I would prefer:

"The implication as I believe is that u are strong in ur understanding that ppl who believe unverifiable facts are too simple and lacking in intelligence."

Belief:

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

My understanding of the problem is none of the above and I appreciate if you can comprehend that one can also understand things without believing in them. In this particular case I can see a logical connection between capacity to believe and intelligence. If someone expresses an opinion, does he or she express their belief? Not necessarily. So let's just call things by their names from now on, shall we?

The secret of bending the spoons: "Bend them when nobody's watching" is that simple by the way.
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  #50  
Old 04/03/2006, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

I will withdraw from the discussion at this point.
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  #51  
Old 04/03/2006, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

intelligence is related by an inverse proportion to belief.

this is true in the sense that adopting or trusting information that is given to you without critical thought leads the person to draw erroneous conclusions. the issue is this: even though the information given may be true, if the person accepting the information does not understand the information, he/she may draw erroneous conclusions. for example, the person accepting(believeing) the existance of god, then killing others because of this belief.

intelligence is not inversely related in the case of making predictions about the future. a very intelligent person "believes" that his/her prediction of future events is true. indeed, making accurate predictions about the future is a mark of intelligence.

the difference is that the person that makes accurate predictions about future events holds a different relationship to information given. the accurate predictor seeks to understand information through insight/intuition. the innacurate predictor simply accepts the information, as if reality were an if-then proposition, and believes success comes in finding the correct premise to adopt.

the post that made reference to einstein believing in god is not completely accurate. einstein intuited/knew that god existed. he had no belief, but a direct obsevation as any great empirical scientist should.
http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/define.html
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  #52  
Old 04/03/2006, 06:30 PM
alphaquerist alphaquerist is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

by time is being
Quote:
einstein intuited/knew that god existed. he had no belief, but a direct obsevation as any great empirical scientist should.
I am just a little curious. How do u think he "observed" god? But this question is not aimed at continuing the arguement/disagreement . As I have already mentioned I am curious about y have u written what u have?
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  #53  
Old 04/03/2006, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

@time is being

Although I see your point I disagree in the opinion inuition is better than strict logic when making conclusions. I believe that this is not necessarily the case much of the time.

About the whole Einstein thing- are you referring to his statement "surely you don't think that god plays dice"? I believe that this statement is overblown. He said this in opposition to the nature of uncertainty in quantum physics, correct? I think he was just illustrating a point using an emotional appeal more than making some sort of religious statement.
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  #54  
Old 04/03/2006, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

strict logic will never allow understanding. logic/thinking is a tool that must never replace the intuition. logic never tells anything new. the answer to a logical problem lies in the question, and the question is given. although something can be understood logically post discovery, its discovery lies outside of logic as does understanding by those who did not do the initial discovering. conclusions that mean anything can only come from the intuition. hence, belief belongs to logic and intelligence belongs to intuition.


einstein: “The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere.”

einstein: “The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties – this knowledge, this feeling … that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men.”

einstein is not being Fe or Fi or "emotional". he is being knowledgable.
http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/define.html
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  #55  
Old 04/03/2006, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
hence, belief belongs to logic and intelligence belongs to intuition.
I think we've been down this road before. Let's say it is true, and belief belongs to logic then it would be possible to communicate any belief using strict logic, which is apparently impossible to do. It means that every belief has to have rational basis, which we already know is not the case. However it is possible to communicate any belief using intuition because intuition is vague in nature. Intelligence on the other hand requires concrete solutions which intuition cannot deliver again due to its nature.
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  #56  
Old 04/03/2006, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
intuition: the act or faculty of knowing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.
This is not the same intuition as the one used in Socionics. The same definition of intuition you've chosen later follows: See Synonyms at reason.

The reason already belongs to logical domain, that's probably why you think intuition is understanding.

In Socionics the definition of intuition is the wholeness. Ne is the outer wholeness, Ni is the inner wholeness. All interpretations involving Socionics intuition should lead back to the wholeness.
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  #57  
Old 04/03/2006, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Yo, SG. I have had difficulty finding a source that explains the Socionics definition of intuition, especially Ni, in full. I have only seen you writing about the "wholeness" thing. Could you explain it in more detail? Is it similar to that process Lenore Thomsson calls "introverted thinking" (which I referred to before)? Do you think that, when I've tried in to describe my thinking process in earlier posts, and thought it was introverted thinking, it was actually a description (maybe bad, but anyway) of introverted intuition?
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  #58  
Old 05/03/2006, 08:07 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
hence, belief belongs to logic and intelligence belongs to intuition.
I think we've been down this road before. Let's say it is true, and belief belongs to logic then it would be possible to communicate any belief using strict logic, which is apparently impossible to do. It means that every belief has to have rational basis, which we already know is not the case. However it is possible to communicate any belief using intuition because intuition is vague in nature. Intelligence on the other hand requires concrete solutions which intuition cannot deliver again due to its nature.
every belief does have a rational basis, despite some holders of a certain belief not being cognizant of that rationality/logic. the communication of logic is not easier or more difficult than the communication of intuition. belief is no longer belief when understood intuitionally. it is meaning. intuition is only vague because it is not cultivated and strengthened. intuition is more concrete and direct and real than logic. it lends itself completely to understanding, while no other function does so.

i would not equate "concrete solutions" with intelligence. seeking a "concrete solution" is often in opposition to intelligence; in opposition to understanding. for example, george bush invading iraq.
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  #59  
Old 05/03/2006, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

If this is how you understand logic and intuition then I am sorry, because it is not how it is interpreted in the scope of Socionics. And since you're saying your type is INTj which is TiNe and considering that you've got intuition and thinking backwards, I can assume that you might have twisted type functions around as well and are really an INTp which is NiTe. Maybe after all you need an ESFp and not an ESFj?
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  #60  
Old 05/03/2006, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
If this is how you understand logic and intuition then I am sorry, because it is not how it is interpreted in the scope of Socionics. And since you're saying your type is INTj which is TiNe and considering that you've got intuition and thinking backwards, I can assume that you might have twisted type functions around as well and are really an INTp which is NiTe. Maybe after all you need an ESFp and not an ESFj?
i never had a problem with intuition being a second function for the intj, yet advocating the superiority of the intuition. i also dont see how my previous post is in contradiction to the socionics definition of intuition. and from what little internet sources i have found, it seems the first and second functions are almost equal in terms of strength, but i am unsure.

intuition: the act or faculty of knowing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.
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