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  #1  
Old 20/02/2006, 04:30 PM
j-kan j-kan is offline
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Default What is my type?

Well, I have been tested as INTP with MBTI tests and as INTp with STA and Dmitri Lytov's test. But I was typed as an INFP or ENTP or even ENFP several times at MBTI tests.

Some things about myself:

1) I don't see myself possessing strong Te. I tried accounting for a few months and I was terrible at it. I think that's a Te thing. But then, of course, accounting is not exactly analysis.... I’m pretty good at spotting grammatical mistakes for a person with English as a second language. Wonder if that's Te.

2) I don't learn in a systematic way. Like I still don't know what preposition and adverb mean but I can write reasonably well. I learn in my own way and don't care how the material is presented to me. I could be a slow learner but once I got it, I got it. And I think I am better at recognizing patterns.

3) I have serious problems with love. When I was 17 or 18, I actually tried to turn myself into a stoic person knowing too well how my emotions can get me. I am the kind that won't ever accept others' love coz I feel I don't deserve it. But I pour loads into people myself but never quite showing that. Thank God I’ve only been in love twice. One got confused and left. The other thought I wasn't interested and moved on. I was left totally heart-broken. It usually takes me several years to get over that person and I had to have minimal contact with them coz for me, their pulls were (or maybe still are) too strong. Pathetic, right? Movies like Brokeback Mountain and Braveheart are just my kind of movie. So full of love, either for a person or for a nation. I see a pretty strong Fi. Does that make me an ENFp?

4) For some reason, I am always perceived as arrogant, unapproachable and cold. When I first joined the company I’m now working at, the whole department disliked me. They thought I was arrogant or something cause I can be quite direct and offend others unknowingly. We have to work in teams and I’ve heard only too many times that they like me more after working with me. Some said I am actually a very warm person inside.

5) I try to act friendly sometimes but that never lasts for long and I tend to overdo that. And, I hate it, but it's so obvious that I keep people at a distance... unconsciously. I am aware of that, but I have no way to fix the problem. I can love a person a lot but refuse to even go out with him but I would be giving them little thoughtful gifts that are sometimes made by myself. I am totally pathetic, sending off mixed signals. I do the same with friends. Friends have remarked that I swing from the extreme introversion to extreme introversion from time to time.

6) And lastly on ambition. I will slave for glory and money although I am in general a very lazy person. I am not a workaholic, but I don't care much about dreams and ideals. Right now, my goal is to find a career that I am good at and offers great prospects. I am very indecisive and, I notice too many opportunities. And I tend to get into jobs that I don't like but ones that offer good prospects and quit them some time later cause I can't stand them. I am learning to listen more to my heart now. I wear rags (almost...). I don't care how I look at all, even when I’m 26 now! I stop wearing a pair of pants only when they're completely worn out. I am a minimalist when it comes to material goods. Naturally, I save quite a lot of money that I have no desire to use except for academic purposes. I don't care much about investing my money, either. I just need to make sure I have enough to spend.

Sorry to tire you with a long entry, but this are I. So what do you think my type is?
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Old 20/02/2006, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

another crazy INTp
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Old 20/02/2006, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

or ENTp?
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Old 20/02/2006, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Interesting stuff, ml. In many ways you and I have had similar experiences, and by the way you write I wouldn't be surprised if we turned out to be the same type. At least we have some things in common.

I know (beyond reasonable doubt) that I am a TiNe. On a theoretical level that means that I should be an INTP according to Myers-Briggs Theory and an INTj according to socionics. If they really correlate in that simple way is a much more complicated matter. At first I used to test as an INTJ on several MBTI tests, but after a couple of months I realized that I am an INTP in that model. There's no room for doubt about that. I'm probably an INTj according to socionics, but I'm slightly less sure of that.

One thing often said about INTPs is that they have the greatest precision in thought and language of all the types. I believe that's true, and it probably has more to do with Ti than with Te (or what do you socionics experts have to say about it?).

I don't learn in any systematic way either. There are to many interesting subjects to explore to really have time to focus on what most people think I should focus on - getting a normal job with a safe income for example.

I've always been quite fascinated by stoic solutions to love problems. When I was about nine years old I actually tried for a while to talk and behave like a computer ... I also have a kind of romantic, "pathetic" streak that usually comes as a surprise to others who don't know me too well. I don't remember if I have seen the films you mention, so I'm not sure they are similar, but I have a strange liking for the film Legends of the Fall for example.

"For some reason, I am always perceived as arrogant, unapproachable and cold." I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't blame them, since I know I can be quite blunt and arrogant at times, especially when I know that I know what I'm talking about. I was shy as a kid, stupid as a young man, and it is only as an adult that I have finally become smart and arrogant ...

I'not sure we are that much alike when it comes to other things you write about. Giving gifts might be a sign of an INFP - I'm not very good at it myself. I can be rather lazy though. And when I work I tend to do it in the "P-way", post-poning things to the last minute an so on. (I might want to discuss the problem with J- and P- behaviour in more detail later on on this site.) My general attitude to work is that if it's not fun I tend not to do it, even if that means that I would have to starve until I find a job that is more like play.

I think I'm a kind of minimalist too when it comes to material goods, maybe except for books.

At this stage I can't say for sure which type you are, and it might not help very much to take more tests, because they are not that accurate when it comes to determining a single person's type. They give an indication of your type, which, in combination with other considerations and information inputs, can be useful in a type analysis. Since I'm not using socionics as a the only tool to reach the truth (at least not yet), I feel free to suggest that you read some other material that has helped me to realize my true nature.

If you are an INTP you might be a socionics type INTj. You'll find a lot about INTjs on this site. There's a lengthy and pretty accurate description of INTPs on www.intp.org. If you really are an INFP you could be a socionics type INFj, so don't be too sure about you being a P-type, at least not in the socionics model. You could also make a comparison with the Enneagram model, in which you should be a FIVE if you're an INTP/INTj and probably a NINE if you are an INFP/INFj.
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Old 20/02/2006, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Is your name ml or j-kan? Sorry if I'm mixing it up this way, but now I really don't know who you are ...
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Old 20/02/2006, 07:30 PM
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I would be very interested in hearing your arguments in favour of INTp, time is being. Do you think I'm a socionics type INTp, too? (When I started to write on this site I was contemplating for a short while whether there might have been a little "Quasi-identical tension" in the air, suggesting that maybe one of us INTjs could be mistaken about his identity and actually be an INTp instead - or NiTe anyway). And what do you and SG think of the correlations in general between INTPs, INTps, INTJs and INTjs?
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Old 20/02/2006, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Do you have a pic by the way?
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Old 20/02/2006, 11:13 PM
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I assume you know for sure they were ESFps, time is being, so let's not argue about that. We can also assume you know for sure you had conflicting relations with them. So far so good ... But then comes a problem. That you know for sure that you're an INTj is based on the premise that an ESFp has a conflicting relation with an INTj. And how do you know that in the first place? Of course you could DEFINE an INTj as the type which has a conflicting relation to ESFps or the other way around, but then the true nature of the "INTj" is an open question. Or you could define "conflicting relation" as the kind of relation that exists between, for example, a SeFi and a TiNe, but then it is an open question which type is the TiNe - is it the INTj or the INTp who really is the TiNe?

What you say about indecisiveness is extremely intresting. One thing that is most noticable among some of my INTJ (fitting the MBTI descriptions of INTJs) friends is that they seem to get irritated by my indecisiveness and passiveness in certain situations. At least two of them have also spontaneously said that one of the things they consider most important is to know what you want (to accomplish). They seem much more certain of what their goal is. From my perspective they can be too hasty in making decisions without considering all the facts and not willing to discuss alternative solutions to a problem. Sometimes they say it's fruitless since it is a doomed failure anyway. That kind of thinking and behaviour I have always thought was due to their Ni function.

My problem with deciding which socionics type I am has to do with:

1. I am almost 100 percent certain that I'm a TiNe, not a NiTe. Everything I've read about introverted thinking and introverted intuition suggests that I must be an introverted thinking type. Otherwise all of those descriptions of what introverted thinking is like must be false - including Jung's own.

2. The parts of your socionics descriptions that describe how an INTj thinks (with introverted thinking) seem pretty accurate, but the parts that have to do with how an INTj behaves and is perceived by others are more confusing. Some aspects seem to fit me, others don't, and it is almost the other way around with INTps. I'm not sure I understand how an INTp is supposed to think, but some aspects of their behaviour might fit me.

3. It seems that my behaviour is more P than J, regardless of whether you look at the MBTI or the socionics descriptions of the differences between J and P behaviour:

P behaviour:

"act impulsively following the situation" (I'm not sure I do. I don't think I'm very spontaneous or impulsive.)

"can start many things at once without finishing them properly" (Yes, that could be said of me.)

"prefer to have freedom from obligations" (Definitely so for me.)

"are curious and like a fresh look at things" (Even more certain about that one.)

"work productivity depends on their mood" (Yes, very much.)

"often act without any preparation" (Doubtful, uncertain)


J behaviour:

"do not like to leave unanswered questions" (Well, I want to dig deeper into an interesting question - like this one - if I don't know the answer to it, but I don't want to make decisions too soon.)

"plan work ahead and tend to finish it" (No, I wish I had more of this quality.)

"do not like to change their decisions" (I think it's easy for me to change a decision - if I ever made one in the first place ...)

"have relatively stable workability" (No, I don't. Sometimes I work hard and effectively, at other times I can be very lazy, being an expert on doing nothing.)

"easily follow rules and discipline" (No, only those rules I find acceptable, which can be quite many, though, and only the discipline I impose on myself ... okay, I often have trouble following that one, too.)


So, what do you make of it, time is being? As I've explained elsewhere, I'm certain there is something wrong with either socionics or MBTT or both. Are you willing to defend socionics as it is, or shall we try to modify it somehow?

And what do you have to say about it, SG? To argue that socionics works well would be irrelevant in this case, since it is quite possible that it does - but maybe the the reason why it does is not the one you think.
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Old 21/02/2006, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
And what do you have to say about it, SG? To argue that socionics works well would be irrelevant in this case, since it is quite possible that it does - but maybe the the reason why it does is not the one you think.
Well, Prometheus, I am trying hard to understand what are you talking about and I fail every time. I am mostly skipping your posts because they irritate me. It looks like you're trying to make things excessively complicated on purpose so no one can argue about what you have say. You're right, it works, and I can't be bothered to argue either. But since you asked I will tell you. If you define a dichotomy you have to show extreme pros and extreme cons. This way you know where it starts and where it finishes. This is the black and this is the white. Two extremes. Then you start interpreting the grey whether it is more black or more white. This is how it works. You on the other hand take it literally and then complain that you can't find the exact match and so you start blaming everything and everyone for what seems to be your own problem. I will say it again, if it doesn't work for you - leave it! There are plenty of people for whom it works just fine.
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Old 21/02/2006, 03:41 AM
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Well, SG, you write that you're trying hard to understand what I'm talking about but fail, that my posts irritate you, and that from your perspective I'm trying to make things more complicated. From my perspective I'm trying to make things clear and simple to avoid misunderstandings. But that you don't understand me is an interersting fact in itself, isn't it? Surely you must have thought of the possibility that were not the same type? A lot of things so far seem to match pretty well your description of a Quasi-Identical relation:

"In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way."

Don't you admit that it looks like a possibility - maybe even a plausible one? But you are much better at judging whether this is an indication of a quasi-identical relation or not. If that really is the case - that one of us is INTj and the other one is INTp - then at least I have made some real progress in my understanding of the problem.

The above is not a defitive proof of course, but it struck me from the beginning as interesting that your reactions to my initial posts felt almost like INTJ (MBTI Type) reactions to me.

Another thing that I find interesting - but maybe you disagree on this point - is that, based on your explanations of the differences between INTps and INTjs, many of your arguments are the kind of arguments I would expect coming from an INTp. Yet another, much weaker argument, for that is your positive(?) attitude to astrology. But all of it together gives me the impression that you could be the same type as those real life examples of MBTI-INTJs that I know of.

So SG, how sure are you of you being an INTj? Is it really impossible that you might be an INTp (NiTe)? It doesn't matter to me which type I am myself as long as I understand its nature, and I'm genuinely curious about this matter.
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Old 21/02/2006, 03:42 AM
niveK niveK is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

On the subject of J-kan's type, screamingly ILI (INTp). #3 is a shining example of the Fe PoLR. His HA of Fi is there taking the pressure off of its extroverted counterpart.

Math is not necessarily Te. I'm not even sure it's all that type-related to an extent (though I've seen posted on the16types by various people that higher-level math is a very Ti subject). Te focuses on facts and procedures. The connections between them aren't as important as the end result.

#4 is a combination of the introverted base function and the Fe PoLR. Introverts are more suspicious of unknown circumstances, and definately wouldn't want to expose their weakpoint in such a place. #5 shows the HA at work again, but still being its weak self. It's unconscious and weak, so its boundaries are quite vague, but it's not necessarily uncomfortable, not like feelings expressed towards you are.

#6 shows the Se dual-seeking, wherein you seek to have control over your environment. You also show a lack of value for Si by your lack of concern for your comfort.

ILI all the way.
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Old 21/02/2006, 06:23 AM
j-kan j-kan is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

Thanks for the replies. It seems very likely that I am an INTp after all.

Prometheus, I changed my nickname from ml to j-kan after I've posted the message. Sorry for the consfusion.
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Old 21/02/2006, 08:18 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
I would be very interested in hearing your arguments in favour of INTp, time is being. Do you think I'm a socionics type INTp, too? (When I started to write on this site I was contemplating for a short while whether there might have been a little "Quasi-identical tension" in the air, suggesting that maybe one of us INTjs could be mistaken about his identity and actually be an INTp instead - or NiTe anyway). And what do you and SG think of the correlations in general between INTPs, INTps, INTJs and INTjs?
i know i am an intj because of the multiple relations i have had with esfp's. i am an intj because of the uncontrollable conflicts that arrise. when interacting with an esfp, she always misconstrues what i say, and vice versa. everything becomes a double entendre, and when the relationship goes south, those double entendres cut to the core and i feel like death. dont know if you are intp or intj? get emotionally and physically involved with an esfp and you will soon find out.

as for you prom, i can only speculate that you are an intp because you refuse to decide. and i would further speculate that if you are in a relationship and choose not to show that person that you appreciate them and choose to remain aloof, that would suggest INTp behavior. mixed signals=INTp. and switching careers, that says p more than anything. as an INTj, i found the INTp indecisiveness irritating as f*ck. it is almost as if the INTp is completely ruled by the environment and lacks any internal motivation. (sorry about ripping on INTp's)
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Old 21/02/2006, 04:50 PM
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Prom: yes, the true nature of intj is left open in the last post, but i didnt think understanding the true nature of intj was the point. i was suggesting that deduction is a valid, albeit quick and dirty, method of determining type whilst flavoring it with personal experience.

to determine if one has Ni or Ti primary is another question. because the first and second function of the psyche are both conscious and strong it can be difficult to make the determination. all i can suggest is to check out rcmcnew's site: socion.info and become familiar with the first two functions of each type. i think introspection would be in order. ask yourself: "how do i approach the question of Ni or Ti dominant?" do you use socionics as a "cataloguing system for future considerations", or do you "refine and index (socionics) and see it as a logical system?" think back and perhaps you can determine which came first for you. perhaps you could look at how i approach the question (this post) and gain some understanding of Ti dominance.

and a loathing of indecisiveness comes from a strong Ti function. choices are easy when seen from logic, and exceedingly irritating when others dont make the logical, extremely obvious choice. only someone without Ti dominance could waffle on about the answer to a math solution.

i am not sure why socionics needs to be changed, and i am not concerned with mbti. and the question of astrology opens a can of worms as it brings into question ideas about how we understand reality. in a way, astrology and science are both just forms of symbolic divination that can lay claim to results.
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Old 21/02/2006, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Well, SG, you write that you're trying hard to understand what I'm talking about but fail, that my posts irritate you, and that from your perspective I'm trying to make things more complicated. From my perspective I'm trying to make things clear and simple to avoid misunderstandings. But that you don't understand me is an interersting fact in itself, isn't it? Surely you must have thought of the possibility that were not the same type? A lot of things so far seem to match pretty well your description of a Quasi-Identical relation:

"In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way."

Don't you admit that it looks like a possibility - maybe even a plausible one? But you are much better at judging whether this is an indication of a quasi-identical relation or not. If that really is the case - that one of us is INTj and the other one is INTp - then at least I have made some real progress in my understanding of the problem.

The above is not a defitive proof of course, but it struck me from the beginning as interesting that your reactions to my initial posts felt almost like INTJ (MBTI Type) reactions to me.
Interesting, at times I find it difficult to fully appreciate your ideas as well (of course it could be that I'm just damn slow). I have the same misunderstandings with my father (ISTJ) as you described above-we end up needing a mental translator sometimes.
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Old 21/02/2006, 07:30 PM
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Prometheus, just because I think you make things unnecessary complicated and there happen to be a matching line of text in the description of Quasi-Identical relations you conclude that this must be it, we must be Quasi-Identicals? This is exactly what I was talking about - you take things way too literally. Why don't you go back and read your own posts carefully:

"INTj and ESFp are in conflicting relationship unless INTj is not INTj but INTJ which could also be an INTj but as equally possible that it could be an INTJ. So if INTj is INTJ which is like INTj then ESFp is ESFP. But if ESFP is ESFp then INTj could be an INTP which is like INTj or an INTJ which is ... etc"

I just tried to mimic the kind of gibberish you write. So what would you call all that – simple, average or unnecessary complicated? And is it just my own opinion that it is unnecessary complicated or it looks universally unnecessary complicated? If you think that a single exact match in your reasoning is all you need to jump to a perfect conclusion, then... well... good luck to you. And by the way, repeating what was said a few lines up the thread is hardly necessary and it doesn't do any favours to your intelligence.
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Old 21/02/2006, 10:23 PM
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Okay, I'll give it one more try, but now I'm beginning to feel a slight irritation myself by the way you continuously refuse to discuss the arguments, SG.

Here are som facts:

1. I've never said that we must be Quasi-Identicals. I only said it looked like a possibility. I don't know if we are or not, but your response to my last post doesn't make it less plausible anyway.

2. Types are identifiable by empirical observations. For example, both MBTI and socionics have identified almost the same behaviour pattern in one group of people, and they have decided to call that group ISTJ/ISTj. That it really is the same type EMPIRICALLY is obvious from the descriptions they both put forward to describe the typical behaviour of ISTJs/ISTJs.

3. But then we could ask ourselves this question: What is the true nature of that type we have identified? What is the internal structure of an ISTJ/ISTj? Now the two theories suddenly disagree and give us two incompatible answers. According to MBTI the psyche (or brain) of an ISTJ is structured SiTe, and according to socionics it is structured TiSe. One explanation could be that they are really talking about the same structure, only using different labels for it, and that they really agree on what that structure ("molecule") looks like. But that doesn't seem to be the case - at least it's not at all obvious to me.

I want to put it this way: The ISTJ/ISTj must have an internal structure that is independent of our theoretical definitions of that structure. If we could somehow look into the brains of all those people we have identified as members of the ISTJ/ISTj group, then perhaps we would be able to determine if that type is a SiTe or a TiSe (or something else). Suppose we found that the structure really is TiSe. Then we could say that to be a "true" member of the ISTJ/ISTj type you MUST be structured TiSe - otherwise you are not a real ISTJ/ISTj, even though you might look like one and behave like one.

4. Maybe one cause of the confusion is that I have tried (not very successfully) to differentiate between three "types" of types:

a) The empirical, visually identifiable type, defined by patterns of behaviour, and so on.

b) The theoretical type, defined by the model, which in the above case gives us two different theoretical types (names) - SiTe and TiSe - referring to the same empirical type ISTJ/ISTj.

c) And finally the "real" or "true" type, which is identical to the essential nature (whatever it is) of the empirical type. That implies that both theories COULD be wrong about what that essence (structure) of an ISTJ/ISTj really is. "TiNe" is just a label, of course. We could choose to call that structure we want to refer to by using the label "TiNe" something else. It really doesn't matter. But if we have agreed on the MEANING of the label "TiNe", that it refers to "that" (pointing to the structure itself out there in the world or into my own head) and nothing else, then we can say that a statement like "SG is a TiNe" is true, if and only if, SG is a TiNe.

As for your comments, time is being, I can say that I have read what rcmcnew has written about the Ti and Ni functions in INTjs and INTps, and though his descriptions are not perfectly clear to me, he doesn't seem to describe the Ti and Ni functions in a way that contradicts what others have said about the matter.

I've tried many times to understand the Ni function in such a way that it would be possible for me to think that I'm a NiTe. But I have failed every time. Every time I have come to the conclusion that I must be an introverted thinking type - a TiNe. The descriptions of Ti often seem to be very accurate descriptions of the way I think.

So if introspection is a valid method in this case, I think I must conclude that my essential nature is TiNe. I'm also certain that the MBTI descriptions of INTPs describe me much, much better than the MBTI descriptions of INTJs - both empirically and of course theoretically since I'm a TiNe.

What I'm NOT certain of yet is whether there is a socionics type that is identical to my true type, and which that socionics type would be. I have thought that I fit the INTj descriptions better than the INTp descriptions, but for some, now hopefully more obvious, reasons that doesn't seem to be so clear after all.
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Old 22/02/2006, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Here you go again...
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Old 22/02/2006, 12:47 AM
niveK niveK is offline
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Ok, quick fix to this. Despite any superficial similarities or silly uses of MBTI style acronyms in socionics, MB types DO NOT effectively correlate to socionics. Sure, sometimes it happens, but it's not of great value. The MB system is at it's core 4 dichotomies. The functions aren't very consistently defined in MB in my experience. And the functions are not the same as socionics functions by the same name. Any similarities between a person's socionics type and MB type is based mostly on a few similarities in the dichotomies and not a result of the systems being compatible.

Any attempt to make them correlate in a predictable fashion is a waste of time and effort. However, I'm not in a position to dictate to anyone how to spend their time and effort, so just consider my advice and do what you will.
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Old 22/02/2006, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Ok fine. You want to discuss it I will discuss it but first you have to do something. I need an answer to the following question:

What method did you use to come to the conclusion that ISTj and ISTJ is the same type both in Socionics and MBTI? If you compared descriptions I want to know what descriptions exactly and where did you get them. If you compared behaviour, I want to see examples. If it is done EMPIRICALLY I want to see empirical data and how it is obtained. This is the basis of your stupid argument - so make it unshakeable if you want to use it.

I expect you to make it short because I mostly request data you operated on so I can look into it as well.
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