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  #1  
Old 29/08/2006, 06:16 AM
Malia Malia is offline
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Default Type and Holidays

Do most ISFp's that everyone knows loooooove holidays? I know this is described as an SJ thing but I think there are some ISFp's and INFp's who really get into it. What does everyone think?
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Old 29/08/2006, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Do you know someone who doesn't like holidays?
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  #3  
Old 29/08/2006, 06:02 PM
Malia Malia is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Haha, yes, well I was raised a Jehovah's Witness (unfortunately) so I never experienced holidays. Now I am out of that religion, and I don't feel much draw towards them..
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Old 29/08/2006, 06:04 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Quote:
Do most ISFp's that everyone knows loooooove holidays? I know this is described as an SJ thing but I think there are some ISFp's and INFp's who really get into it. What does everyone think?
I concur with SG, as long as you're happy everyone likes the holidays. Though to answer the question without being flip, the decoration and socializing involved would appeal to and respectively. The good cheer and brotherhood of man appeal to and . NF types are liable to attach great significance to the holidays. The thinking types are kind of out in the cold (the holidays are a feelers delight) unless you count watching football as an outlet for strategizing.
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Old 29/08/2006, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

An ISFp friend of mine tells me how much he likes giving and preparing gifts for christmas but how he does not like receiving them. Another ISFp I know does not like receiving gifts much either. ISFp's definitely like throwing little parties as well preceeding big events (like a going away party or something like that). ISFp's also like dressing up alot and two ISFp's I know say halloween is their favorite holiday. I know this could just be coincidence, but coupled with other traits of theirs it seems there is a tendency to lean in that direction.

The ESFj's I know also enjoy events like birthdays or holidays. My sister never forgets holidays and birthdays and expects others to do the same for her. Another ESFj I know is into dressing up for halloween and it comes across as a little immature because he is a he. I recall an ESFj from one of my college anthropology classes. She did a presentation on american indians and dressed up(like a first grader would) as an indian. Most people thought it was a little silly.

There seems to be more depth to the way ESFj's and ISFp's celebrate holidays. Both seem to want to make people happy although its a little different for each.

I don't socialize too much with gamma SF's but my stepmother is an ISFj and whenever she tries to get the family together she always finds some level of tragedy in everything and complains afterwards. This could just be her though. it isn't as warm though, that is for sure(for me, maybe not everyone else). I dated and ESFp and she liked dressing really flashy in order to gain attention and told me how she liked to dress up in 1950's wardrobe and go to restaurants with friends acting all old fashioned. Seemed sorta lame to me and she never invited me which made me feel kinda bad.

The NF types all seem more easygoing about holidays. There isn't as much obligation or anticipation about the actual event. I do have an INFp friend that loves to give gifts though and likes to share his knowledge and interest in music by handing out mix CD's. Another likes to show off his interest in beers. there is sort of a conniesseur mentality about it. ENFj's(that I know) seem to force their interests into events, especially during religious holidays. If they don't like an element of christmas they won't be afraid to replace it with their own kooky belief system and don't really seem to care that it might make people uncomfortable or that it might make them look weird.
I don't know much about the Delta NF's but my guess is that they are the ones that would be into playing the piano and singing to sheet music(INFj's) or being really happy and carefree or whatever.

I know an INTj girl that makes really bizarre gifts, also. But I don't give enough gifts to deserve many of my own so I am not an expert on this.
But all that is just my own experiences so take it as you wish.
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Old 30/08/2006, 02:22 AM
WhyMustWeKill WhyMustWeKill is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

While I do enjoy the gifts and the food, I hate the concepts that people conjure up for celebrating the holidays. Nothing really but mindless traditions in the end. Its not even really the fact that I don't believe in Christianity for Christmas or Easter or whatever the holiday and the religion with the holidays are. I just find it to be extremely stupid for people to worship something that they have no idea of what the hell it is or what the hell the purposes are. Most people that attend churches and stuff don't really go because they believe in god, but they go to fit in. Religion is nothing but social conformity. The whole concepts of people believing in something just because of the way they were brought up really bothers me. People not being able to formulate their own ideas.
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Old 30/08/2006, 07:41 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Quote:
While I do enjoy the gifts and the food, I hate the concepts that people conjure up for celebrating the holidays. Nothing really but mindless traditions in the end. Its not even really the fact that I don't believe in Christianity for Christmas or Easter or whatever the holiday and the religion with the holidays are. I just find it to be extremely stupid for people to worship something that they have no idea of what the hell it is or what the hell the purposes are. Most people that attend churches and stuff don't really go because they believe in god, but they go to fit in. Religion is nothing but social conformity. The whole concepts of people believing in something just because of the way they were brought up really bothers me. People not being able to formulate their own ideas.
I dislike it when people are so overly impressed with their own intellect that they blindly stereotype everyone who does not share their convictions.

I am a Christian. For me, Christianity is simply a matter of logic. If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true. I believe Christ rose from the dead. Ergo, the gospel is true as far as I am concerned.

While it might be a fact that for most religion is about social conformity. For me, going to church is about celebrating my God with my fellow believers. Christmas and Easter are merely grandiose reminders of the significance of what God has done for man.
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Old 31/08/2006, 05:42 PM
WhyMustWeKill WhyMustWeKill is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Quote:
Quote:
While I do enjoy the gifts and the food, I hate the concepts that people conjure up for celebrating the holidays. Nothing really but mindless traditions in the end. Its not even really the fact that I don't believe in Christianity for Christmas or Easter or whatever the holiday and the religion with the holidays are. I just find it to be extremely stupid for people to worship something that they have no idea of what the hell it is or what the hell the purposes are. Most people that attend churches and stuff don't really go because they believe in god, but they go to fit in. Religion is nothing but social conformity. The whole concepts of people believing in something just because of the way they were brought up really bothers me. People not being able to formulate their own ideas.
I dislike it when people are so overly impressed with their own intellect that they blindly stereotype everyone who does not share their convictions.

I am a Christian. For me, Christianity is simply a matter of logic. If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true. I believe Christ rose from the dead. Ergo, the gospel is true as far as I am concerned.

While it might be a fact that for most religion is about social conformity. For me, going to church is about celebrating my God with my fellow believers. Christmas and Easter are merely grandiose reminders of the significance of what God has done for man.

so.... um... how did you come to ur conclusion?
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Old 31/08/2006, 08:39 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Quote:
so.... um... how did you come to ur conclusion?
In my late twenties I rejected the faith for many of the same reasons you mentioned in your post, e.g. religion as a social control mechanism. I then began to read philosophy but found successive philosophers tended to contradict one another from one generation to the next. I also found the necessary entailment of atheism: namely, that the world and all that in it exists by accident to be a visceral absurdity. Thus God exists.

If God exists then I possibly could have adopted the wrong faith, but in that event I expect that God, being wiser than I, would either show me my error or make allowance for it.

Apart from that, the conditional statement I made earlier: If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true, stands alone.

We have the testimony of the New Testament writers that the resurrection of Jesus is an historical fact. Since I believe in God anyway, disputing the Bible on that point serves no purpose for me.

1. If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true.
2. Christ rose from the dead.

Conclude, modus ponens: The gospel is true.

Having reached the conclusion that God exists and the gospel is true, I am a Christian by definition.
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Old 31/08/2006, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

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If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true. I believe Christ rose from the dead. Ergo, the gospel is true as far as I am concerned.
That's an interesting point of view. Although there is no evidence that Christ rose from the dead, never mind the logical absurdness, you chose to believe in it to be true. Just shows that your Ni is the basis of your Type and could easily override your Ti. This is inconsistent with the model of an INTj (TiNe).
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Old 31/08/2006, 10:16 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Quote:
Quote:
If Christ rose from the dead then the gospel is true. I believe Christ rose from the dead. Ergo, the gospel is true as far as I am concerned.
That's an interesting point of view. Although there is no evidence that Christ rose from the dead, never mind the logical absurdness, you chose to believe in it to be true. Just shows that your Ni is the basis of your Type and could easily override your Ti. This is inconsistent with the model of an INTj (TiNe).
What can I tell you? I'm complicated. I have long suspected that INTj is not my actual type. I have no compulsions that seem motivated by a hidden agenda. On the other hand, I am a definite introvert and a math geek. However, it wasn't until freshman year of highschool that I showed any mathematical ability at all, and then only because I started doing algebra rather than arithmetic. (That seems to indicate to me that Ti is my long suit rather than Te.) I might be an NF type but I'm much too analytical most of the time for that. As a kid I was verbally precocious, mildly dyslexic, and to this day I am very dominantly left handed. My right hand is almost ornamental.

PS You indicated that there was no evidence of the resurrection of Christ. What would you accept as evidence? It is after all an ancient event that is principally noumenal so how would you prove it? To my mind, the best one can do is simply to accept the written record as truthful. If it turns out not to be then what difference is it going to make?
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Old 31/08/2006, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

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PS You indicated that there was no evidence of the resurrection of Christ. What would you accept as evidence?
Christ himself but not a written statement by few dillusional people. Mind can play tricks on you if you want to believe in something really much. It is almost as it goes: "Alright, alright! Enough torturing me! Here you go, have your #@%$£% fantasy and leave me alone!". That is if the whole thing is not one deliberate lie.
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Old 01/09/2006, 02:50 AM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Christ himself but not a written statement by few dillusional people. Mind can play tricks on you if you want to believe in something really much. It is almost as it goes: "Alright, alright! Enough torturing me! Here you go, have your #@%$£% fantasy and leave me alone!". That is if the whole thing is not one deliberate lie.
That's one point of view.

Nevertheless however I arrived at it, whether by Ni or Ti, what I presented is a valid argument. The conclusion of a valid argument can only be false if one of its premises is false. It's not surprizing which premise you chose deny, but for my money this is the one question in life a person cannot afford to get wrong.

With that in mind, if one wrongly opts for the affirmative it won't matter; if one wrongly opts for the negative, the outcome could be completely catastrophic.
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  #14  
Old 01/09/2006, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

(beating a dead horse)
Now I am not going to say that what a supposedly delusional mind conjures up is definitely not real in some way(although I won't force the idea that it could be real) but I have met people that really do manipulate the past in order to see what they want to. We might all do it at some level but for some people it is blatantly extreme.

I know a woman that does it regularly, as though she needs to(ENFj). If she wants to believe, for example, a cat lived for 20 years, she just remembers the birth of a different cat four or five years prior to the real birth and implants the desired identity in the memory.

She will also pretend she has seen and contacted many ghosts and had many spiritual experiences. Sometimes I think she is delusional, other times I am jealous and think she has a talent. Who knows.
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  #15  
Old 01/09/2006, 05:16 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Now I am not going to say that what a supposedly delusional mind conjures up is definitely not real in some way(although I won't force the idea that it could be real) but I have met people that really do manipulate the past in order to see what they want to.
It was not my intent to turn this thread into a debate about religion or about the state of mind of religious people. I only meant to show, using myself as an example, that rationalism and materialism are not synonymous.
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Old 01/09/2006, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

I'd like to make few points here. If you believe in Santa Claus or little green aliens and shut up about it that is one thing. If you try to justify your beliefs using logical manipulation you:

a. either not entirely convinced yourself and therefore try to patch holes since human mind is very rational (even of an irrational person) and has trouble accepting your beliefs.

b. try to agitate others into believing the same which by itself is agressive version of point a.

b. - is worst.
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Old 01/09/2006, 08:51 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

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I'd like to make few points here. If you believe in Santa Claus or little green aliens and shut up about it that is one thing. If you try to justify your beliefs using logical manipulation you:

a. either not entirely convinced yourself and therefore try to patch holes since human mind is very rational (even of an irrational person) and has trouble accepting your beliefs.

b. try to agitate others into believing the same which by itself is agressive version of point a.

b. - is worst.
Actually neither one of those alternatives is true of me. However, the purpose of logic is to justify one's beliefs, which is what I have done. I haven't used logic as a tool of manipulation to get anyone to believe as I believe; I merely answered a question. I was asked how I arrived at my point of view.
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  #18  
Old 01/09/2006, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Type and Holidays

Our whole universe is pretty much based on faith because we can't possibly ever know everything and experience everything.

Even the recollection of events after ten minutes is based upon a more precise method of conjuring up the belief of what happened. Everyone might say "he ate macaroni" but what if it weren't macaroni at all!

It's(in a similar way) noticeable in elementary school, where people are just learning words. A person might use the wrong word to describe something(i knew someone that used the word cleavage to describe the presence of the nipple). If word is passed on to different groups the message mutates(like running a phrase through a translator then retranslating it to another language, then back to the original) there are subtle differences in the meanings of words which make the communication of a perception(which is garbled to begin with) mutate even further.

So we all have our own unique inner idea of what it takes for "christ to rise" some may say the "rise" is ideological and metaphorical, others might say it is or must be literal. So did it really happen? Someone said it did but did they have the same definition of what a literal and metaphorical interpretation is? How did Semitic people see the world 2000 years ago?
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