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Old 19/01/2009, 11:13 AM
contra aka Cyclops
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Default Should socionics be used as a predictor of a career?

Or is this a Myers Briggs thing?
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Old 22/01/2009, 10:58 AM
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You could use socionics to help determine the careers that would capitalize on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.
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Old 22/01/2009, 11:36 AM
contra aka Cyclops
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Thank you for replying.

I find this an interesting topic. Could you elaborate on your response?

I will a little:

As I understand it, IQ is a more predictive tool for employment than type.

That is, there are ENFp's who work in architecture (as architects, whom I know), ISFp's who are medical surgeons. I am unsure of how type affects ideal employment, given this and other factors involved.

As it stands, for instance, would an ideal job for an ISTp really be as a mechanic, and an INTj would be the one who works as a scientist?

This seems like a bias to me which is focusing imposing limitations based on someones type, not their qualities of application, intelligence, field of interest etc.

I am unconvinced (at least for the moment) that socionics can tract to the extent of being brought to bear as a career contrivance.
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Old 22/01/2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contra View Post
Could you elaborate on your response?
Socionics can assist you in choosing a career that will capitalize on how you metabolize information. It should not constrain your career choice, but rather it should merely be used as a tool to assist in career placement. For example, if I was considering two different careers equally, socionics may help me to choose one over the other.

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Originally Posted by contra View Post
As I understand it, IQ is a more predictive tool for employment than type.
This could very well be true, but it is irrelevant to the issue of whether socionics can assist in career placement. (However it is relevant if you meant to initially ask what indicator has the highest correlation to a person's career. )

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Originally Posted by contra View Post
That is, there are ENFp's who work in architecture (as architects, whom I know), ISFp's who are medical surgeons. I am unsure of how type affects ideal employment, given this and other factors involved.
You are correct in your conclusion that any type can end up in any career. There are always exceptions, and career choice is based on a myriad of factors. But how specific types metabolize information will undoubtedly make them more suited for certain careers over others.

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Originally Posted by contra View Post
As it stands, for instance, would an ideal job for an ISTp really be as a mechanic, and an INTj would be the one who works as a scientist?
You have to weigh all the factors to determine what an "ideal job" would be for someone. Besides their socionic type, these factors include what the person enjoys doing, the environment they have been raised in, the education they have received, their IQ, etc.

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Originally Posted by contra View Post
This seems like a bias to me which is focusing imposing limitations based on someones type, not their qualities of application, intelligence, field of interest etc.
I wouldn't think of it as a serious limitation; it is just one minor factor to consider, not something you are bound to follow.
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Old 22/01/2009, 12:38 PM
contra aka Cyclops
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
Socionics can assist you in choosing a career that will capitalize on how you metabolize information. It should not constrain your career choice, but rather it should merely be used as a tool to assist in career placement. For example, if I was considering two different careers equally, socionics may help me to choose one over the other.


This could very well be true, but it is irrelevant to the issue of whether socionics can assist in career placement. (However it is relevant if you meant to initially ask what indicator has the highest correlation to a person's career. )


You are correct in your conclusion that any type can end up in any career. There are always exceptions, and career choice is based on a myriad of factors. But how specific types metabolize information will undoubtedly make them more suited for certain careers over others.


You have to weigh all the factors to determine what an "ideal job" would be for someone. Besides their socionic type, these factors include what the person enjoys doing, the environment they have been raised in, the education they have received, their IQ, etc.


I wouldn't think of it as a serious limitation; it is just one minor factor to consider, not something you are bound to follow.
I agree with you.

Yes, as I pointed out, I think that information metabolism is one thing among many things that should be used to indicate a suitable job, but, as it stands the current "suggested" jobs for types, such as

ISFp's - Cooks
ENTp's - Scientists

Is incorrect.

Makes it sound that the ISFp is untalented basically, or at least does not have the capacity to be talented, and is on course for a low paid job in comparison to the ENTp high flying scientist. I think the stereotypes should be done away with, at least in their current state.

So I think that socionics doesn't work as a predictor of a career, but works as an aide to a possible decision. (which was my initial question.)
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Old 22/01/2009, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contra View Post
I agree with you.

Yes, as I pointed out, I think that information metabolism is one thing among many things that should be used to indicate a suitable job, but, as it stands the current "suggested" jobs for types, such as

ISFp's - Cooks
ENTp's - Scientists

Is incorrect.

Makes it sound that the ISFp is untalented basically, or at least does not have the capacity to be talented, and is on course for a low paid job in comparison to the ENTp high flying scientist. I think the stereotypes should be done away with, at least in their current state.
I'm not sure about this. Even if it is stereotypical, there is a good reason that NTs are called researchers, STs are called pragmatists, SFs are called socials, and NFs are called humanitarians. For example, it would be very very rare to see an ISFp as a theoretical physicist. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but an ISFp's functional ordering is not condusive to theoretical physics at all.

The same goes for me. I would struggle to be an actor, a salesman, the life of the party, etc. Do I feel like I'm untalented because I'll never be a famous actor, singer, etc.? No. One of the fundamental premises of socionics is that everyone has specific strengths and weaknesses. Just because an ISFp doesn't excel at abstract thinking doesn't mean the ISFp is "untalented," unless that's how you define talented. I know one ISFp pretty well and I can say I find her very talented; she is an amazing cook (sorry, but it's true), but she is also really good at graphic design stuff (her career is in graphic design), photography, etc.

And the whole thing about ENTps being highly paid is probably a misconception. They're not too interested in high salaries (as compared to ENXjs who place a lot more value on this).

Again, I'm not saying socionics should limit what career choices a person is considering, but it is a legitimate factor to consider. If I had known about socionics (and my type) back in high school, I probably would have planned out my college courses differently.
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Old 22/01/2009, 03:38 PM
contra aka Cyclops
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
I'm not sure about this. Even if it is stereotypical, there is a good reason that NTs are called researchers, STs are called pragmatists, SFs are called socials, and NFs are called humanitarians. For example, it would be very very rare to see an ISFp as a theoretical physicist. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but an ISFp's functional ordering is not condusive to theoretical physics at all.
It's rare to see anyone being a theoretical physicist. I honestly don't know any so I can't comment on their types.
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The same goes for me. I would struggle to be an actor, a salesman, the life of the party, etc. Do I feel like I'm untalented because I'll never be a famous actor, singer, etc.? No. One of the fundamental premises of socionics is that everyone has specific strengths and weaknesses.
I don't understand this. There are INTj's who are actors, who are salesmen. Then, I don't know any INTj's who are life and souls of the party...but what does that have to do with a career? Hmmm.. I guess a typical entertainer is an extravert, then, entertainers can be entertaining with flamboyancy or also a good imagination I suppose.
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Just because an ISFp doesn't excel at abstract thinking doesn't mean the ISFp is "untalented," unless that's how you define talented. I know one ISFp pretty well and I can say I find her very talented; she is an amazing cook (sorry, but it's true), but she is also really good at graphic design stuff (her career is in graphic design), photography, etc.
There is more than one way to be a scientist than to excell at abstract thinking! (even thought excelling at it does require high intelligence.)
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And the whole thing about ENTps being highly paid is probably a misconception. They're not too interested in high salaries (as compared to ENXjs who place a lot more value on this).
My point is that a scientist is higher paid than a cook.
Quote:
Again, I'm not saying socionics should limit what career choices a person is considering, but it is a legitimate factor to consider. If I had known about socionics (and my type) back in high school, I probably would have planned out my college courses differently.
Now I'm not sure if we agree or not! I think any type can do any job, given sufficient IQ level, education and personal drive.

On the ISFp thing; Now perhaps an ISFp would be happier being a cook than a manager. Again, I would disagree, because an ISFp with an extremely high IQ and one who was ambitious would want to be challenged more.

For instance:

Typically managers must have an IQ of at least 110. So the most ESTj person in the world would make a poor manager if their IQ was 100.

An ISFp with a higher IQ would make a better manager than the ESTj.

Also: Personality. Are they able to work as a team? Now I have observed people of the same type having differring social skills. So again, specialisation of team working ability should be taken into account.

My current belief, is that type can be used as a guide towards potential employment, but I don't think type is sufficient on it's own to be a *reliable* guide.

My overarching point is that I would like to see the benefits and the limitations of socionics explored. And career choices being one of them - perhaps socionics works best in tandem with other testing methods. Then one could draw up a really good career testing system.

Last edited by contra aka Cyclops; 22/01/2009 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 22/01/2009, 06:58 PM
contra aka Cyclops
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Infact, I've thought a little more about this and came to a conclusion.

We see all the types in all walks of life. You see different people working as a manager, but they each bring something different. Some manager focus on efficiency and productivity while others focus on morale and team comraderie. They are all effective, just in different ways. The best ones do their job in a way which plays to what they are good at.

If someone is looking to find their ideal career, or they know which career they wish to follow, then they should use traditional career testing methods such as speaking to a careers advisor.

Socionics should be used to ascertain your strengths and weaknesses and how the best way to do your job, or find your niche in your preferred field which utilises your particular socionics type strengths. This will best exploit your type, and guide you to on how to adapt your strengths to how you do your job.

So my advice to you RSV3 is to now use socionics as a guide to help find your niche and your style in the field you are now in. You can tailor your style, even your line of work within that profession in a way to suit your types strengths, and avoid working in your field in a way which causes you to focus on your inherent type weaknesses.

Infact socionics shouldn't not be used to recommend a career path. It should be used to decide the best way to utilise your strengths within your field.

Last edited by contra aka Cyclops; 22/01/2009 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 23/01/2009, 02:42 AM
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I just wanted to say a little word about the IQ thing...

Every single problem in an IQ test is 1000x more simple then basically anything else in your life. Simplicity here not being measured by what percentage of people actually get the problem right, but in the level of complexity of the problem itself.

Deciding what you want to have for dinner is already far and away more difficult then any IQ test problem, as you have to weigh many different factors.

What IQ basically is is a composite of how good you are at abstraction and making "removed from the world" things have meaning in your brain. Also, it measures a small subset of your experience multiplied by your ability to remember things. (It also measures your ego in several ways: you can get answers wrong by refusing to second guess yourself, you can get answers right by forcing yourself to think it 100% through.)

It is a far better personality assessment then it is an assessment on the efficacy of your brain! (NOTE: When I say personality, I don't mean socionics in this context!)

Actually, the tests only have meaning if you keep the comparisions in the same society. Look up "Flynn effect".

I would say the largest correlate (my guess) to IQ would be abstraction ability combined with general knowledge (general enough so they put it on the test!)

But when it comes to real jobs, in the real world, do you really want or need the ability to make non-real things seem real to your brain? Is generalized knowledge important, or is specific knowledge important?

IQ test is like measuring people's height when there is money spread out on the ground.

As for socionics as predictor of career, this is entirely wrong and incorrect I agree. If you are good at something or bad at something, it doesn't matter what your type is. The only predictor of a career should be the ability to carry out the things needed in that career. People get wayyyyyyy too hung up on "predictors" of this nature, when the simple fact is that if you are good at something, and you like it, then do it! But try different things out first!

There is no test that can predict if you like something or not, that idea is just silly.
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Old 23/01/2009, 03:33 AM
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As I've said before career choice is based on a large number of factors and any type can end up in any career. That's obvious. What is also obvious is that there is a clear, statistically significant correlation between socionics type and career choice. Whether you choose to acknowledge this or ignore it is up to you. Similarly, socionics is a tool you can choose to use or not use.

IQ has also been correlated to earning capacity, but it's not as significant as most people believe.
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Old 23/01/2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Transigent View Post
Deciding what you want to have for dinner is already far and away more difficult then any IQ test problem, as you have to weigh many different factors.
Not if you have Si ego
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What IQ basically is is a composite of how good you are at abstraction and making "removed from the world" things have meaning in your brain. Also, it measures a small subset of your experience multiplied by your ability to remember things. (It also measures your ego in several ways: you can get answers wrong by refusing to second guess yourself, you can get answers right by forcing yourself to think it 100% through.)

It is a far better personality assessment then it is an assessment on the efficacy of your brain! (NOTE: When I say personality, I don't mean socionics in this context!)
Interesting what you say about IQ. It's defo by no means the be all and end all. I do think the ability to think abstractly is needed to solve problems in the real world as well.

Now I'm working from memory here, and yes, IQ does entail certain requirements to sit it: that is, a basic education, and being fluent in the language the test is in. I would agree that people in some countries (like 3rd world) could be highly intelligent but not do themselves justice on an IQ test, because their basic education isn't similar to that of the Western world. What IQ does is measure how quickly you can solve problems. You're right that the questions each on their own are pretty simple, but you are timed in an IQ test.

From memory from Eysenck (i've started so i'll finish lol) The mind is set up that it can only hold a certain amount of information in the short term memory for a limited amount of time. Hence when you are working on a problem, if you can get to the end quicker, then you will remember where you started from to produce the answer. That is, if your brain isn't as efficient, by the time you've got half way through the problem, then you will have forgotten where you started and have to do the whole thing again from scratch (hence why some people are referred to as quick and slow) which would be another thing IQ tests measure.

(Also, on IQ tests, most of the ones on the internet are crap)

Anyway, although it can't be perfect, it's the best measure of intelligence that we've got, produced through many years by professionals in psychology. And seems to be the best measure of what jobs you can typically do well.

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Actually, the tests only have meaning if you keep the comparisions in the same society. Look up "Flynn effect".
Yeah the the Flynn effect is interesting, but when you look closely at it, the rise has taken place in the lower half distribution (below 100) but negligable in the upper half distribution (above 100) The reasons proposed for this are many: People becoming more familiar with mulitple choice type test, that the world is more complex today than it used to be blah blah blah etc's!

As I understand it they are normalised every so often, so that the mean of a given population would still be 100 (and in the 1st world is definitely more applicable than say Africa)

(I think there's been some research on the Flynn affect in Kenya, which associates it to increased literacy ability of parents...maybe going back to basic education standards..that we take for granted, being needed for the test to have some relevance.)

Quote:
As for socionics as predictor of career, this is entirely wrong and incorrect I agree. If you are good at something or bad at something, it doesn't matter what your type is. The only predictor of a career should be the ability to carry out the things needed in that career. People get wayyyyyyy too hung up on "predictors" of this nature, when the simple fact is that if you are good at something, and you like it, then do it! But try different things out first!

There is no test that can predict if you like something or not, that idea is just silly.
I agree, however speaking to a careers advisor can give you ideas of a job you'd like you hadn't thought of before, or advise you the best route to get there (what to study, where to take an apprenticeship, that sort of stuff.)
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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
As I've said before career choice is based on a large number of factors and any type can end up in any career. That's obvious. What is also obvious is that there is a clear, statistically significant correlation between socionics type and career choice.
This sounds a little contradictory, but it's interesting. Can you provide a link to this 'clear statistically significant correlation between socionics type and career choice' that you speak of?
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Last edited by contra aka Cyclops; 23/01/2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 02/06/2009, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by contra aka Cyclops View Post
Or is this a Myers Briggs thing?
Well, that's why people are using MBT anyway. I think MBT itself might have been designed with career choosing in mind.

As for Socionics, I think type has less to do with aptitude in certain jobs than how much you will end up enjoying your job.
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