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  #21  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:21 AM
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Oh this was a civil discussion until you made that comment!
I take it INTjs dont get along with ESFps, hey RSV
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  #22  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:30 AM
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I take it INTjs dont get along with ESFps, hey RSV
They're okay in short intervals, but I try to avoid prolonged contact with them.

In regards to intjwurm's test results: A socionics type test is hardly definitive. If one has a preconceived notion of what type they should be (e.g., if they have already typed INTJ in the MBTI system), that person will often subconsciously (or even consciously) choose answers on the test that he knows will produce the desired outcome (i.e., INTj). Also, it is widely known that many INTps mistype themselves as INTjs. More interaction and information from intjwurm will help elucidate things.
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Last edited by RSV3; 03/06/2008 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #23  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
They're okay in short intervals, but I try to avoid prolonged contact with them.

In regards to intjwurm's test results.
I cant find what he said in an earlier post.....did he say he was an INTJ thru mbti ?

personally i would value the MBTI type designation and then just flip the j or p to get the socionics designation for all introverts
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  #24  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
They're okay in short intervals, but I try to avoid prolonged contact with them.

In regards to intjwurm's test results: A socionics type test is hardly definitive. If one has a preconceived notion of what type they should be (e.g., if they have already typed INTJ in the MBTI system), that person will often subconsciously (or even consciously) choose answers on the test that he knows will produce the desired outcome (i.e., INTj). Also, it is widely known that many INTps mistype themselves as INTjs.
I could use the same argument on you...you still have not provided any conclusive evidence and I am growing wary of your conceited attitude regarding the accepted standards of measure, including the socionics test. Your elusive constructs and disdain for pragmatic methods make me wonder if indeed it isn't you that is INTP. To be honest I was initially certain that I was INTP (Albert Einstein's type) because I did not want to be limited by making judgments in ephemeral contexts, but I tested consistently INTJ on many different tests and so I have accepted it. I now realize that this reflects my ability to be strategically decisive and to generate empirical content from hunches (such as the poll). I am on average about 2/3 more J than P, or 83% J and 17% P. So I repeat, what is your excuse (excuses are an INT thing), RSVp?
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  #25  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
I could use the same argument on you...you still have not provided any conclusive evidence and I am growing wary of your conceited attitude regarding the accepted standards of measure, including the socionics test. Your elusive constructs and disdain for pragmatic methods make me wonder if indeed it isn't you that is INTP. To be honest I was initially certain that I was INTP (Albert Einstein's type) because I did not want to be limited by making judgments in ephemeral contexts, but I tested consistently INTJ on many different tests and so I have accepted it. I now realize that this reflects my ability to be strategically decisive and to generate empirical content from hunches (such as the poll). I am on average about 2/3 more J than P, or 83% J and 17% P. So I repeat, what is your excuse (excuses are an INT thing), RSVp?
You can type me however you want. However, I must reiterate my position: you seem to consistently demonstrate Te in your ego block and Fe as your PoLR. And I don't think I have acted "conceited" so far; I have just given some first-impression thoughts and called for more discussion on the subject (I have never said I think you are INTp for sure; rather I have said your own actions raise some questions as to your self-proclaimed INTj typing). Furthermore, I would turn your comment back around and observe that you yourself have demonstrated a fairly arrogant and conceited position in regards to your type--particularly by using the name intjwurm and by being so unreceptive to this discussion.
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Last edited by RSV3; 03/06/2008 at 12:53 AM.
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  #26  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
I could use the same argument on you...you still have not provided any conclusive evidence
would you say that you're more alpha or gamma (if you're familiar with those terms and the associations that go with them) ?

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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
.

do you guys believe in any way that there may be a missing Dichtonomy out there (forgive the spelling its brutal today) ?

Last edited by kensi; 03/06/2008 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #27  
Old 03/06/2008, 12:56 AM
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Maybe, but we have no reason to believe that. His test results is the most reliable source of informatin on his type that we have access to.
This is true, perhaps we should therefore try to gather some more information in this regard. Can you think of anything which may be useful in his case?

Also, perhaps it could be useful if he give his views on this:

www.socionics.com/articles/intjorintp.htm

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I have thought the same as you here, but I am not sure it is such a strong argument. It has some strength to it, but it is not conclusive, and there might be other possible interpretations of that behaviour.
I agree.
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From my INTp perspective his conclusion seems to be based on his (incorrect) interpretation of the theory rather than on a comparison with reality.
Then that should of course be noted.
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That argument is rather strained.
True.
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You have not a reasonable case yet. First of all you have to explain his test results, which is an anomaly. And does he say that he identifies with INTP descriptions in MBTT? I have thought that he identifies with INTJ, and if so, that is another strong argument for LII.
He has mentioned that he used to identify with INTP (or that he used to think he was INTP) until he tested out as INTJ..or something like this..I actually noticed in this thread. I'm not sure what his stand is on that now.
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  #28  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
Te in your ego block and Fe as your PoLR
Please defend your position regarding this assumption.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
www.socionics.com/articles/intjorintp.htm
Thank you for this link, it has proved quite helpful.

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Originally Posted by kensi View Post
would you say that you're more alpha or gamma (if you're familiar with those terms and the associations that go with them)?
Because I lust after the abstract more than the concrete, alpha. I am a computational biophysicist with little or no hope of material gain in this field. I am very self-conscious so I have the introverted sensing fault. However what leads me to decide conclusively on INTJ from the description is this statement:

"It is important for an INTp to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection"

I certainly do not exhibit this behavior. I would like to thank all of you for helping to confirm my socionics type, and regret any perceived hostility. If you have more questions I would be happy to address them.

Last edited by IntjWurm; 03/06/2008 at 01:22 AM.
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  #29  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:45 AM
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I am going by this and many, many other sources, including MBTI. What is your excuse?
Just out of curiosity, what did the test result say?

BTW, pm me if you want this thread locked, same goes for anyone else, if you don't like where things are going (within the reason of course) threads could always be locked or even deleted.
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  #30  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
Please defend your position regarding this assumption.



Thank you for this link, it has proved quite helpful.



Because I lust after the abstract more than the concrete, alpha. I am a computational biophysicist with little or no hope of material gain in this field. I am very self-conscious so I have the introverted sensing fault. However what leads me to decide conclusively on INTJ from the description is this statement:

"It is important for an INTp to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection"

I certainly do not exhibit this behavior. I would like to thank all of you for helping to confirm my socionics type, and regret any perceived hostility. If you have more questions I would be happy to address them.
Fair enough. Like I have said before, I never gave a definitive statement as to your type but rather suggested a possible alternative (INTp); and you very well may be INTj. But I will give you some more concrete reasons why I believe you are INTp.

First, you trend towards gamma characteristics over alpha characteristics. From wikisocion: "
  • Gamma types take a longer-term view regarding efficiency and profitability, giving lower priority to the short term. Likewise, they tend to aim at the broader benefits of decisions, rather than only at those affecting themselves, giving them an inclination for self-sacrifice.
  • Gamma types like to talk about where present trends are leading in terms of potentially profitable events and undertakings.
  • Gamma types tend to give more value to ideas and concepts that are firmly connected to factual information. "
This last point definitely applies to you--most if not all your posts utilize or request that ideas and concept be connected to factual sources. With respect to the second point above, I have seen you use Ni in your intuitive evolution discussion--i.e., you had a clear view of the temporal trends of inuitive capacity.

Again from wikisocion with respect to gamma quadra super ego:
"
  • Gamma types don't tend to form or maintain groups based on fun, emotional interaction, but only take groups seriously that perform some common productive activity or discuss serious topics.
  • Gamma types reject the idea that it's best to avoid confrontations so as not to spoil the mood of those present, they prefer directness in settling or at least discussing disagreements.
  • Gamma types have difficulty relating to emotional atmospheres connected to "special dates" such as public holidays."
Your proclivity towards the second point is irrefutable. You prefer directness in settling and discussing agreements. I would also say the first point applies to you: i.e., your posts are very serious with little to no indication of fun/emotional interaction.

Second, I will discuss my reasons by function. First, I have mentioned your Fe before and so I will start with that analysis first.
From wikisocion in regards to an INTp's Fe:
"When discussing matters that are perceived as important, ILIs often betray a harsh, critical perspective on viewpoints and ideas that they find particularly stupid and insensible. This may be a result of the fact that some ILIs do not attach emotional considerations to arguments and do not consider criticism to be offensive. Instead, if confronted with somebody whose intelligence, persona, or ideas they do not respect, they may react in a hostile fashion, which can be perceived as arrogant; however, not all ILIs, obviously, will react in this fashion."

I would say that you initially displayed a "harsh, critical perspective" of this discussion because it involved your type, which you "perceived as important." And it clearly is important to you, I don't think there is any argument over that.

Moving to your ego block, wikisocion had this to say in regards to your Te:
"
ILIs place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work. They may be inclined to look down on or pity people who consistently demonstrate ignorance of what they consider to be basic, essential facts. It is often also very important to ILIs that a person's beliefs take into account any new factual information. For this reason, they tend to be rather skeptical of people's positions, and even frequently tend to question their own position. In groups the ILI will often question the validity of information being exchanged. Likewise, many ILIs may often use a mocking and aggressive tone.

Many ILIs have a deep factual understanding of subjects which they find interesting or care about. Sometimes ILIs perceive the real-world occurrences around them, such as the daily tedium of work or school, through the lens created to understand the information that they care about most, although they may choose not to share this perception with others. They often have little to contribute in many social situations, but when the topic of their interest comes around they may tend to be the center of attention, disseminating the information of their expertise.
ILIs can often be highly critical of others' ideas and actions. Often this is because others' ideas violate the ILI's understanding of the facts, or because ILIs see more efficient or workable solutions.
ILIs normally channel their energy towards constructive criticism because they frequently lack the initiative to take decisive action themselves.
"
You undoubtedly place great importance on facts, their accuracy, and empirical data in general. You have leveled criticism at more Ti oriented people due to their reduced factual reliance. You have also displayed criticism of others' ideas and actions (e.g., this thread). It is also obvious you have a "deep factual understanding" of things that you care about (e.g., you clearly know a ton about computational bio-physics, at least that's how it seemed from the vocabulary you were using in the intuitive evolution discussion we were having ). I hope this has helped elucidate my position a little.

I'll add a couple more things to what I previously said. Here is a brief description from wikisocion of alpha group behavior:
"
Alphas try to create a comfortable and pleasant group atmosphere, in the emotional, sensorial, and intellectual aspects. An ideal Alpha group situation is the exchange of light-hearted jokes while discussing novel concepts, all while enjoying pleasant food and drink. Narrating personal experiences usually takes the form of telling a joke; funny and unusual personal experiences are preferred over serious and banal ones. The fun and jokes that go along with activities are at least as important as the activities themselves. They avoid generating "heavy" moments; any dramatic expressions are limited in time, most often in service of a joke. Alphas are also perhaps the most likely types to participate in use of mind-altering substances. "

While I do have a number of serious posts, I do inject some light-hearted remarks here and there and prefer to keep things pleasant. However you don't really display any of the above cited alpha behaviors, rather most of your posts are very serious.

Also, I apologize if my posts were offensive; they were solely meant to generate discussion/ascertain your type.
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Last edited by RSV3; 03/06/2008 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #31  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
Please defend your position regarding this assumption.



Thank you for this link, it has proved quite helpful.



Because I lust after the abstract more than the concrete, alpha. I am a computational biophysicist with little or no hope of material gain in this field. I am very self-conscious so I have the introverted sensing fault. However what leads me to decide conclusively on INTJ from the description is this statement:

"It is important for an INTp to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection"

I certainly do not exhibit this behavior. I would like to thank all of you for helping to confirm my socionics type, and regret any perceived hostility. If you have more questions I would be happy to address them.
Computational Biophysics. Do you think your personality led you to this field cause you have a knack for it?
Computational= NiTe ??
Bio= SeFi ??
Physics= TiNe ??
i seem to be picking up a lot of stimulatory Te energy from you,
and your ability to make connections is extraordinary ,Ni,............... unless of course there is some other axis on which these assertations are reversed....hmmm.
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  #32  
Old 03/06/2008, 02:32 AM
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Just out of curiosity, what did the test result say?

BTW, pm me if you want this thread locked, same goes for anyone else, if you don't like where things are going (within the reason of course) threads could always be locked or even deleted.
Thanks SG. The test result was conclusively INTJ. Thus far this thread seems to be an authentic speculation as to whether I could be better typed, which I am willing to endure for the sake of argument.

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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
Fair enough. Like I have said before, I never gave a definitive statement as to your type but rather suggested a possible alternative (INTp); and you very well may be INTj. But I will give you some more concrete reasons why I believe you are INTp.
Can you explain where I seem to self-sacrifice?

Can you point out where and how I can expect a profit?

As for my love of raw empirical data, it is the only type that doesn't change to fit my own cognitive representations (of which the poorest thinkers are capable), and separates the quacks from the visionaries. It is also my nature to share information and allow you to draw your own conclusions because I do not want to influence your thought and stifle your own creative process. However I also theorize constantly, visible in the forums from the source of my inability to sense the environment when I wake up to the possible preference of sense-oriented information metabolism such as VI in 'S' types. I also tend to view evolution as a discrete 'event-based phenomenon' (), which manifests in the corruption of individual genes, as a opposed to a gradual temporal process (). Your next three conclusions do reflect me somewhat as I am typically not aware of the passing of ritual celebrations because they have little personal relevance. I am also very direct and very point-oriented (though for knowledge α and not profit γ). Lastly, you have misinterpreted my loathing for inconsistent logic (which induces an abominable lapse of communication) as a prejudice of content (with which I do not identify for practical purposes). I am still critical of your perspective not because it addresses my type but because you have only now begun to support your allegations, and not once in this discussion have I claimed that I was certainly INTJ; I have only presented evidence in support of my own understanding. The statements regarding Te are equally applicable to INTJ as INTP. I have nothing against speculation because I am always doing it...however, I am very critical of those who would pass their own preconceptions as a relevant working model of physical phenomena. I thank you for your observations, but they seem to reflect (with the exception of the super ego analysis) a more Superficial than iNtimate correlation with the standard classifications. Lastly, you should realize that I am sharing my introverted ideas with you because I am defending my position, and not attacking yours. And also, where I am from everyone abuses psychotropic agents.

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Originally Posted by kensi View Post
Computational Biophysics. Do you think your personality led you to this field cause you have a knack for it?

Computational= NiTe ??
Bio= SeFi ??
Physics= TiNe ??

i seem to be picking up a lot of stimulatory Te energy from you, and your ability to make connections is extraordinary ,Ni,............... unless of course there is some other axis on which these assertations are reversed....hmmm.
Thank you. I am actually pretty equally drawn to biological systems and elementary particles, but I am working in the former because the theory is more accessible and the math is more familiar to me.
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  #33  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:03 AM
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Well I don't have a lot more to add primarily because I only know you on a very superficial level and have my typing ability is constrained by this. I'll throw in a couple more points though.

First, I will confess that I initially was doing more generalizing and these generalizations (e.g., that I thought you had an Fe PoLR without backing up my conclusion) understandably frustrated you because I wasn't giving you much reasoning to argue against. However, in my defense, this is an INTj trait. From wikisocion's INTj description:
"
The LII may explore many avenues of thought, but in the end only tell others his refined conclusions, because he sees the intermediate steps as irrelevant. He is often too concise for his own good, making it difficult for others to understand his ideas. "

And I think the previous paragraph shows the INTj-INTp difference between us. I don't rely on a lot of facts to make conclusions (through deductive reasoning and because I'm too lazy (Ne) to spend the time finding all the relevant facts). And this is undoubtedly could be perceived as a strength or weakness of the INTj (that is the ability to make decisions based on little information). And I don't really deem the steps of my analysis to be very important--only the refined conclusions. You on the other hand, as a Te would, loves to find and assess facts and their accuracy. And as a Te, demand (justifiably) to see the steps taken by me in how I reached my conclusion. You want to see my sources of information.
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  #34  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
Thanks SG. The test result was conclusively INTJ. .
I hate doin a lotta reading unless its for my own cause...facts get misplaced and checklists are needed

To simplify:
  1. MBTI Test Result=_______________
  2. MBTI Type according to your own opinion or the valued opinion of others outside of the testing establishment=_____________
  3. Socionics Test Result=_____________
  4. Socionics Type according to your own opinion or the valued opinion of others outside of the testing establishment=_____________
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  #35  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kensi View Post
I hate doin a lotta reading unless its for my own cause...facts get misplaced and checklists are needed


To simplify:
  1. MBTI Test Result=_______________
  2. MBTI Type according to your own opinion or the valued opinion of others outside of the testing establishment=_____________
  3. Socionics Test Result=_____________
  4. Socionics Type according to your own opinion or the valued opinion of others outside of the testing establishment=_____________
That's a good way to put it.
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  #36  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:16 AM
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Well I don't have a lot more to add primarily because I only know you on a very superficial level and have my typing ability is constrained by this. I'll throw in a couple more points though.

First, I will confess that I initially was doing more generalizing and these generalizations (e.g., that I thought you had an Fe PoLR without backing up my conclusion) understandably frustrated you because I wasn't giving you much reasoning to argue against. However, in my defense, this is an INTj trait. From wikisocion's INTj description:
"
The LII may explore many avenues of thought, but in the end only tell others his refined conclusions, because he sees the intermediate steps as irrelevant. He is often too concise for his own good, making it difficult for others to understand his ideas. "

And I think the previous paragraph shows the INTj-INTp difference between us. I don't rely on a lot of facts to make conclusions (through deductive reasoning and because I'm too lazy (Ne) to spend the time finding all the relevant facts). And this is undoubtedly could be perceived as a strength or weakness of the INTj (that is the ability to make decisions based on little information). And I don't really deem the steps of my analysis to be very important--only the refined conclusions. You on the other hand, as a Te would, loves to find and assess facts and their accuracy. And as a Te, demand (justifiably) to see the steps taken by me in how I reached my conclusion. You want to see my sources of information.
That is certainly true - because I view this forum as an avenue for information I may try to encourage that aspect though I typically appear quite reticent in public. You will also sense this INTJ quality expressed in me as an impatience for speculation (as I have already finished brainstorming and am sharing my relevant conclusions with you). However, I try to provide ample information for you to process when that is true. You must realize that my intuition is both introverted and extroverted, and always active. My thinking function serves mostly to explore and justify my expectations in a methodical fashion. I do not separate the process and conclusion but rather view them as ætiologically related in the most absolute sense, and fundamentally inseparable (as one entity with which to deal). I am also well versed in many forms of ontological and epistemological inference, so I can seem quite critical of references. I am also well equipped to make decisive statistical assumptions with very little data, as I stated earlier I believe that this is why I am classified as INTJ and not INTP, which I had previously believed I was.

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Originally Posted by kensi View Post
I hate doin a lotta reading unless its for my own cause...facts get misplaced and checklists are needed
1. INTJ
2. INTJ
3. LII
4. LII

Last edited by IntjWurm; 03/06/2008 at 03:25 AM.
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  #37  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post

1. INTJ
2. INTJ
3. LII
4. LII
this is through several sources of reference, none the which i can confirm to be fully accurate but within all probabilities realistic. Personally, i believe more in V.I. to conclude anything.
    1. the MBTI test score may not be your true type if you're an introvert because MBTI J is labelled as "w.r.t. the outer world" and is by no means indicative of the dominant function being talked about in its functional nomenclature. Some introverts have problems recognizing the nature of their extroversion so certain questions may give crapshoot answers. 15 % wight
    2. Understanding notational differences would be one step above just choosing a profile that fits you. obviously i think you do as MBTI is simpler to understand than socionics 50% weight
    3. i'm not aware of an official test for this 10 % weight
    4. you cant live in to opposing columns at the same time. If you start off with an mbti result, then the socionics is there only to confirm it or vice versa.I will assume for no reason that you wish to start at mbti and further your understandings to socionics, thus it is really not that relevant which profile matches thru socionics as much as you're aware that there are reasonable similarities to validate some sort of legitamacy. 25 % weight cause you still have to validate the similarities
Thus #2, using this logic, seems the logical starting place. So 2.)=INTJ
(I attribute the INTJ of MBTI to gamma no differently than the INTp of socionics to gamma.)
Based on my experiences (and i could be wrong because there is some dissention amongst the group here) .....this should equate ,only by virtue of the reasonabless of similarity of the functions, to 4.)=INTp


thus for propper designation purposes, you can still be INTJwurm, but not INTjwurm (little J)

or if you choose you can be INTpwurm


You should probably ask RSV3 for a better understanding if you like as i am not off the top entirely familiar with the notation for the lower order functions.

feel free to argue, though, maybe i dont know what i'm talking about.
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  #38  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:21 AM
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Talking For Visual Identification Only


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  #39  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
while i personally do pick up some ENTj energies and that possibility cannot be ruled out altogether, I have to say that judging by your phenomenal intuitive abilities on this site that you're an MBTI INTJ. I pick up gamma energy the whole time.

I'll say that this equates to Socionics INTp. (verification is your responsibility though)

By equating it this way you are able to attain constant notational nomenclature in both systems w.r.t your first 2 functions and i see that as the main priority
-------->
NiTe


Your Functional Formula in MBTI would be:
------------->
NiTeFiSe
I'd rather not speculate what it is in Socionics cause they use Block logic rather than progressional logic and my comments may be met with a lot of resistance.


It's a really good pic without any sort of awkwardness to it. I do wonder what other people will say.
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  #40  
Old 03/06/2008, 05:07 AM
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IntjWurm IntjWurm is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 158
Lightbulb Suggestive Power

If you'd like to give me a better socionics test I'd be happy to give you detailed reasons for my answers.
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