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Old 17/03/2006, 07:00 PM
Rick Rick is offline
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Default Model A and psychic states

I want to discuss this issue raised by SG.
Quote:
The problem with model A is that it could be very confusing. It breaks the structure and never puts it back together. For example functions 1-7 in reality is one function (so as 2-8, 3-5 and 4-6) only one part of it is extraverted whereas the other part is introverted, one part is conscious whereas the other part is unconscious, so the two functions have to be very close. Yet if you look at the interpretations of this model, they all look like almost unrelated functions. That's why I do not like model A and I am really surprised that Aushra being ENTp hasn't paid enough attention to the wholeness issue.
This is something I think a lot about, too. On the one hand, for logical consistency you've got to have all 8 information elements in each psyche, and this should be reflected in the model (which it is). On the other hand, socionists have not yet been able to satisfactorally describe the "interaction" between, say, and , or the extraverted and introverted aspects of any element within Model A.

What we get are descriptions of the functions that don't reflect the ties between the mental and vital functions. The functions seem independent of each other, like SG said above.

I'm trying to figure out the ties that exist between the vital functions and the mental function. Observing myself and a few other people is helping me make progress, but I don't yet see the whole picture.

I have a hypothesis that when a person becomes absorbed in any one of the 8 informational elements (in other words, is concentrated on a certain type of information), a certain psycho-physiological state results. It could also be the other way around -- doesn't matter. Secondly, one's subjective experience of this state depends on which position in the model this information element occupies.

So, for example, implies a certain state of mind, and whether I like this certain state of mind, and how long I am able to maintain it, depends on where is in my type model.

My observations suggest that 'normal' people actually spend the vast majority of their time in the states associated with their 1st and 7th functions. This relates to what SG is saying above. I was surprised when I realized how often I am actually in a state (I am an ). Interestingly, I forget about this state afterwards and don't particularly remember what I did or discovered in it.

I am curious whether SG and others who have lots of socionics experience have recognized anything similar in yourselves. What does your 7th function state feel like? When does it turn on?
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Hey Rick, are you going to stay in Kiev this summer?
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Yes. You visiting?
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Nothing is definite, but I might. Shall I look you up if...

My works like this: efficient/inneficient, makes me think .oO(shall I even bother????). Or if you've seen the "Revolver"... What's in it for me? I hate myself for that, but I can't ignore it.
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Of course, we should meet if you do come.

What I'm thinking about is not so much how your function works, but if you have noticed becoming totally absorbed in an state of mind. My guess now is when introverts get really caught up in the outside world, they switch to a 7th function state, and then sort of forget about it afterwords. And when extraverts get really caught up in their inner world, they switch to their introverted aspect. For example, when my turns on, my guitar abilities (especially improvisation) rise dramatically. I play much more creatively and get totally absorbed in it. This state is slightly similar to , but also quite different.
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Well, I just start behaving like an asshole...errr...like an ENTj.
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Do you really feel like an asshole, or are you joking? You don't feel, like, "highly effective" while you're in this state of mind?

Actually, if I'm just zoned out in a state of mind, I don't feel much of anything. But if I'm using it to develop creativity or while reading, I feel really cool. I think the 7th function is actually pretty flexible -- nothing like the 4th and 6th, which are quite exhausting and easily become unpleasant.

I have noticed 's getting really into when they're at parties with people they know. Then they settle down to their normal serious selves afterwards.
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Old 17/03/2006, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Quote:
Originally posted by Rick:

I am curious whether SG and others who have lots of socionics experience have recognized anything similar in yourselves. What does your 7th function state feel like? When does it turn on?
Maybe I am missing the point as to what is being asked, but here is my two-cents on the issue and how I have always attempted to describe the effects of model-a in my own descriptions.

I have always described the 7th function as the natural absence of it in the usage of the 1st function; it is impossible to use a function as extroverted or introverted at the same exact time, you have to switch back and forth. I am not sure so much that in this sort of a senerio that the first function will always stay a conscious function and the 7th function will always remain a subconscious conscious. If a person does start to use his or her 7th function, then that function will temporarily become the conscious function and the 1st function the subconscious function. Yet, the same person will also have a favorite conscious slave 2nd to the 1st function and a slave subconscious 8th function to the 7th function, and that makes it near impossible for any switches between the 1st/7th functions and the 2nd/8th function to be permanent. Also, I see the conscious as more of a self awareness as opposed to what others find themselves aware and the subconscious as the awareness of others as opposed to how a person is aware of self. If a person does not have the same set of functions then there is always going to be something that he or she will find objectable about another's values, and whoever does not share his or her own set of values he or she finds disrespectful on account of his or her own functions in an inverted sense,and that is the relationships I see between the EGO and the ID.

Does that make sense?
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Old 17/03/2006, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

When I turn into I become INFpish . I become into a role of a melancholic
poet. This is a role which I like to play when I want to write some poetry. I create which I call the
Russian Lovesong Singer . I start to listen some lovesongs about brakeups, talk about my worries with someone online, create poetry in my head which is dreamy and blue. I like to play different roles. I kind of know wich role people live who have different functions in their EGO and I like to be like them just for curioisity. But
is the most natural for me. Improvisation is easy.
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Old 17/03/2006, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Cool. That's exactly the sort of thing I experience, but I don't get quite as romantic as you . In this state of mind I also totally lose control over how long I do things. If I'm in that creative/artistic mood, I can't seem to keep any external commitments at all. Also, if I continue ignoring my hunger and other physical sensations, that only strengthens the state.
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Old 17/03/2006, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Hey september, how sure are you that is your 7th function?
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Old 17/03/2006, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Not very, SG. I don't have a clear selfdescription of myself. But what function do you think my White Pyramide is?
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Old 17/03/2006, 11:15 PM
niveK niveK is offline
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Ultimately, I see the introversion and extraversion of a function as both the same function, but with different emphases (is that the proper pluralization of emphasis?). The data percieved by both functions is interconnected, but the 1st function is what the person emphasizes more, and the 7th function exists to unconsciously supplement the 1st function. So it would seem to make sense to me that the 1st and 7th are used more or less in tandem, so swapping between the two would be somewhat frequent.

I often find myself messing around with random objects when I suddenly have a flash of insight of some function they could perform in a larger system. After that flash of a possibility, I see the whole thing start playing out in my head, and often build the system to see it at work in reality.
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Old 18/03/2006, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

Quote:
Originally posted by niveK:

I often find myself messing around with random objects when I suddenly have a flash of insight of some function they could perform in a larger system. After that flash of a possibility, I see the whole thing start playing out in my head, and often build the system to see it at work in reality.
Happens to me a lot.
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Old 18/03/2006, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

I got the first half of it . I think you may be right about the slave function of both 1st and 7th, based on my experience.

Jung and Aushra write that extraversion and introversion aren't absolute, but that people have both mechanisms. Many people think that they switch between the use of their 1st and 2nd functions. Maybe that is true. But just as much, I think, they switch between their 1st and 7th functions.

rmcnew, do you find yourself ever in a dreamy state, when you're not thinking about real subjects in the outside world (including mental constructions), but instead have a sort of visionary state where you just sit back and enjoy vivid internal images of things that might happen, or you make up music in your head, or fairy tales, or anything else like that?
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Old 18/03/2006, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states



I made a graphic to better clarify how I think Model-A works with the 1st/7th and 2nd/8th function.
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Old 18/03/2006, 08:51 AM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

And for the other question ... hmmm

I think there have been times where I have thought about what could be. I do it all the time, but I usually have to do a little reasearch first to see what is out there. Sometimes I imagine, but not very often.
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Old 20/03/2006, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Model A and psychic states

I usually try to get as much input as possible and put all the information on backup in my brain. Then i simply go away and work on another aspect (if it is a complicated issue) or something completely different. Somehow the stored information gets picked up from the queue and processed (evaluated, interpreted from different points of view). From time to time it pops up and i check if i am satisfied with the result, or i literally think give it some more time... it is really like i need some more cpu time to get it. It seems as if i think in multiple threads that only then and when get interconnected until i got the final result. It takes time to make decisions.

Guess that is *somewhat* different from your thinking process, although "playing out in my head" could be a fitting description. It is just that i don't seem to do it very conscious. It's like: stay tuned, we experience technical difficulties. We will be back soon...
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