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  #61  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:06 PM
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I honestly do not know how you or other people VI, all I can say is what it looks like to me. And contrary to the popular believe that you can VI almost anything, I disagree. I only can be sure in my own VI if I've seen someone similar before. Because my VI library in my head is quite large it helps me to get by. I would never think of VIing on demand, because if I haven't seen similar person before it becomes a guessing game, which I don't like. But some people I meet are bang on with my library, so that's always a pleasure to VI them lol.
What do stupid people do? They start by VIing and get a false library. As a result get a wrong idea of types.

One should start by typing people using the theory and store these people in the library. After this library gets so large, they can start VIing.
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  #62  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:06 PM
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I am right-handed and I am a p. Most people are right-handed, but not most people are j's. Therefore there can't be an equivalence between j and right-handedness.
I agree with you cc, but I also agree with RSV3P. One of the issues is that we appear not to have enough information on the subject. However looking at it on your case, it does seem like your type is harder to determine, and going by what SG has said previously in regards to the whole VI thing..what is on the inside also tends to show on the outside, hence perhaps your handedness..and as your type is still undecided, maybe you are j.

It would be useful if SG could elaborate more on this, as he clearly sees value in it.
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  #63  
Old 03/06/2008, 01:17 PM
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So why don't you state it as a premise in your argument? MBTT (T is for theory btw, makes it look inconsistent already with what you're saying) J & P are the same as in Socionics...BUT

No one would want to kill you Prom if you word it like this
We could use another word if you have a better idea. We can't talk about MBTI types, because MBTI is nothing but a typing tool. And the theory is false. But the types are still correctly described by the proponents of MBTT as far as the behaviours and attitudes of the real types are concerned. And the four dichotomies describe the same behaviours, attitudes, and biological life rhythms in both MBTT and Socionics.

The main reason I talk about MBTT is because people have the extremely irritating tendency to confuse the MBTT types with the MBTI test results. The real types are independent of both Socionics and MBTT. The real types are described in roughly the same way by both models, but they are explained differently in the two theories. One of the theories is probably true (Socionics), while the other theory (MBTT) is clearly false. But it is only in its theoretical explanations that MBTT is false. The MBTI test is an accurate typing tool that gives the same result as a good socionic test. You are the same type in both models, and in your case that type is the LII/INTJ.

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I honestly do not know how you or other people VI, all I can say is what it looks like to me.
Yes, that's what I do too. But I have also tested my V.I. skills in real life situations by comparing my predictions with my later more thorough typing of the person using other typing methods (tests, semi-structured interviews, etc.)

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Originally Posted by SG
And contrary to the popular believe that you can VI almost anything, I disagree. I only can be sure in my own VI if I've seen someone similar before. Because my VI library in my head is quite large it helps me to get by. I would never think of VIing on demand, because if I haven't seen similar person before it becomes a guessing game, which I don't like. But some people I meet are bang on with my library, so that's always a pleasure to VI them lol.
Yes, exactly. I have a storage of some V.I. looks that I am very certain are correct, some that are not as certain but still most likely correct, and some that are under a cloud. Through quite intensive empirical studies I have enlarged my V.I. "gallery" to include more and more examples of typical looks of each type. I am better at V.I. typing some types than others. But I can also say that you and I seem to have rather similar views on the correlations between V.I. looks and type. They are not identical but clearly more similar than different.

Last edited by Prometheus; 03/06/2008 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #64  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:17 PM
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Although you do have your mind fully made up, can you tell me though, (although you may have toned it down in last few posts) what has been the purpose of your antagonistic behaviour?
I don't have antagonistic behaviour; I am very opinionated and support my reasoning despite any social norms. You realize that if I think you are incorrect, I will not agree with you anyway just to appease you.

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Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
Here is a short type test used to differentiate INTp from INTj. Just choose the best answer of the choices given; go with your instinct on each question and try not to analyze them. Note that neither or both of the answers may fit you but just pick the one that fits the best. Note that most of the options are not mutually exclusive of each other. In all likelihood this test will prove inconclusive, but many of the questions are more subtle and I purposely phrased many of them so that what type each answer correlated to would not be very clear; this was designed in the hope that it would minimize any subconscious attempts to try and find the answers that agreed with your preconceived type. The key to the test is to not spend much time thinking about the answer but go with your gut instinct.
1. healthy lifestyle - my enneagram suggests that I am 5w6 with an emphasis on self-preservation

2. serious tone with low pitch - I want people to take me seriously and not draw attention otherwise

3. this depends on the content and my ability to guess the course material before it is stated

4. no preference - perhaps one that is detached

5. conscientious of social norms - this is mostly the result of having over 20 years of formal education, and I despise it when petty faults become obstacles to my cause or foundations for more superficial activity

6. detached - reality is illusion; colors are electromagnetic disturbances/sounds are mechanical vibrations

7. good at predicting the future as it unfolds - I am at a loss to understand how someone could predict the distant future and immediately verify it without changing their mind at all over the course of time

8. self-improvement - this is the foundation on which civilization rests

9. There are an infinite number of angles in one circle, so infinite

10. In my opinion all social obligations that are not expressly contractual are decidedly mutually hedonistic, but I try to set an example if I think that will support my cause

11. I am unlikely to discuss matters I view as important unless I am trying to accomplish something

12. There is too much practical information in the world to treat at face value, I stick to something that interests me and develop it fully

13. I am not sure what you mean

14. I prefer that someone else establish the relationship as this usually gives me the upper hand in matters of etiquette and a chance to understand the motivations of the other as they do this

I took this test as you suggested, on first impulse, so I hope that it provides you with closure.

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IntjWurm, are you left handed or right handed? (SG believes this indicates a type preference)
I am right-handed, and my father is also left-handed.

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Okay, now I have seen IntjWurm's photo and taken a closer look at his style of writing, and that settles it. IntjWurm is clearly not an INTp. The V.I. verdict is very clear on this. The only other type that can come into consideration besides INTj is ENTj, but my conclusion is that we have absolutely no legitimate reason to doubt the correctness of INTjWurm's self-typing based on the available information. V.I. suggests INTj (or at least XNTj), all test results suggest INTj, self-identification suggests INTj, and writing style suggests INTj.

So, basically everything suggests INTj as IntjWurm's correct type, and if you look at his longer posts recently you will see a rather typical example of the influenced writing style of INTjs. What you should take a closer look at is how he construct his sentences and his use of abstract nouns. This style of writing is similar to tcaudilllg's at the16types and of course you can compare with Kant's style of writing if you like.
I think that Prometheus has a point concerning Ti:

Introverted Thinking is responsible for understanding logic and structure, categorizations, ordering, logical analysis and distinctions, logic explanations and proof based on a minimal set of "self-evident" rules and axioms. Ti interprets information via a closed and internally consistent system of truths. Ti is particularly aware of syntactic correctness and how words relate to each other in meaning and structure.

I love to derive from a set of first principles, I abhor inconsistency in a theory, and I scored 35/36 on the language section of the ACT, which by the standards of this organization would place at me at IQ>160.

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BTW IntjWurm, you look kinda INTpish on that photo. Do you have more photos? And are you left-handed?

Last edited by IntjWurm; 03/06/2008 at 03:26 PM.
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  #65  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:25 PM
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I have a question: which one is the verbal among the two? INTp or INTj.

I am sorry to make life harder. You did something an autopreservation 5 would never do: you indicated were you live on your user profile.
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Last edited by complicater-complexer; 03/06/2008 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #66  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:30 PM
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Arrow Impetus For Concern

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Originally Posted by complicater-complexer View Post
I have a question: which one is the verbal among the two? INTp or INTj.

I am sorry to make life harder. You did something an autopreservation 5 would never do: you indicated were you live on your user profile.
Tampa is a small metropolis that stretches around an entire bay, good luck finding me there.
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  #67  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:38 PM
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Intjworm, your debating style..but you do realise there is a difference in discussion rather than antagonism? I still think your showing Fe PoLR in a more INTp way. I dunno, maybe your behaviour caught me off guard, I was only trying to help, I didn't expect to be put on the stand lol (I dunno if your actions could be attributed to anneagram also, but whatevers involved, the thread is still somewhat educational
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  #68  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Intjworm, your debating style..your clearly an intelligent guy but do you realise there is a difference in discussion rather than antagonism. I still think your showing Fe PoLR. I dunno, maybe your behaviour caught me off guard, I was only trying to help, I didn't expect to be put on the stand (I dunno if thats a 5 or a 6 thing, but whatevers involved, the thread is still somewhat educational
It could be both, you have to see the underlying motivation in order to guess which one.
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  #69  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:42 PM
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Exclamation Enneagrammar

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Intjworm, your debating style..your clearly an intelligent guy but do you realise there is a difference in discussion rather than antagonism. I still think your showing Fe PoLR. I dunno, maybe your behaviour caught me off guard, I was only trying to help, I didn't expect to be put on the stand (I dunno if thats a 5 or a 6 thing, but whatevers involved, the thread is still somewhat educational
I am still not sure what you are perceiving as antagonism, calling Prometheus ESFJ was just a joke, as I originally thought this was. What you are referring to is probably a 6 trait, because they are very principled, 5s avoid confrontation and 4s avoid bad feelings. However I am not entirely sure about this.

Last edited by IntjWurm; 03/06/2008 at 03:48 PM.
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  #70  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:48 PM
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The way you approached things when you had some questions about VI, I was only trying to tell you how most socionists and socionics practitioners view the subject, but it was like you kept trying to catch me out and replace words in my mouth and set it up like it my idea. You've behaved in antagonistic ways with ie I recall, so far.
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  #71  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:51 PM
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Wink More Antagonism

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The way you approached things when you had some questions about VI, I was only trying to tell you how most socionists and socionics practitioners view the subject, but it was like you kept trying to catch me out and replace words in my mouth and set it up like it my idea. You've behaved in antagonistic ways with ie I recall, so far.
If you recall, I was presenting you with my theory of S/N preference for VI, and you disputed it without factual evidence. You did suggest the value of a survey and then denied it, contradicting yourself. Stating the facts should never be viewed purely as antagonism. I think that you really just have an inflated ego.
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  #72  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by complicater-complexer View Post
I have a question: which one is the verbal among the two? INTp or INTj.
That depends. I am very verbal myself, more so than my INTj father who is an INTj, but he is also highly verbal in comparison to the average person. He is more mathematically minded than I am, but I am not uninterested in mathematics either. We can find writers and mathematicians of both types. I know another INTj that is a professional chess player and a mathematician. He is rather poor on verbal matters though.

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Originally Posted by complicater-complexer
I am sorry to make life harder. You did something an autopreservation 5 would never do: you indicated were you live on your user profile.
Unfounded generalization.
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  #73  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:59 PM
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Unfounded generalization.
I won't allow you to bring your rubbish to enneagram, stay theorizing in your socionics and leave enneagram aside.
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  #74  
Old 03/06/2008, 03:59 PM
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hey, I think it would be more funner to type PROM ,...with him screaming back at you: you're wrong, you' re wrong, you don't know what you're talking about ....all the time....
Do not make light of what you have not seen. I've seen a type thread for him, and I have no wish to go there again.

intjwurm - I dunno, you came across as antagonistic to me, too, having read this thread. If nothing else, you show a lack of tact that may be unintentional. However, I'm not sure how this shows Fe PoLR. If anything, I would think it'd show Fi PoLR.
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  #75  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by IntjWurm View Post
If you recall, I was presenting you with my theory of S/N preference for VI, and you disputed it without factual evidence. You did suggest the value of a survey and then denied it, contradicting yourself. Stating the facts should never be viewed purely as antagonism. I think that you really just have an inflated ego.
You should be cognizant to the idea that an Fe PoLR, especially an INTp, would not be aware of their actions, like you are being. INTj's do not experience this problem to the extent of INTp's.
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  #76  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:12 PM
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I won't allow you to bring your rubbish to enneagram, stay theorizing in your socionics and leave enneagram aside.
I will bring anything relevant up for consideration if necessary.
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  #77  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:14 PM
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Can rubbish be relevant?

How do you know that it is unfounded?

Do you know the description of the autopreservation 5 ?
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Last edited by complicater-complexer; 03/06/2008 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #78  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by complicater-complexer View Post
Can rubbish be relevant?

How do you know that it is unfounded?

Do you know the description of the autopreservation 5 ?
I agree with you that it would be unlikely for a self-preserving 5 to do such a thing, but you said that a 5 would never do such a thing, which is the same thing as to say that it is impossible for a self-preserving 5 to do it, which implies that since IntjWurm in fact did it, he can't be a self-preserving 5. That is an unfounded conclusion.
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  #79  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:25 PM
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Ok, maybe a very higly integrated autopreservation 5 would do it. Since highly integrated people are rare, it is highly unlikely that he is an autopreservation 5
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  #80  
Old 03/06/2008, 04:27 PM
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Question PoLR

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You should be cognizant to the idea that an Fe PoLR, especially an INTp, would not be aware of their actions, like you are being. INTj's do not experience this problem to the extent of INTp's.
I don't know what PoLR is, and you continue to seem to think that I am contradicting you but I am not. If you are really seeking a confirmation and not simply chasing me then you might consider discussing your rationale with Kanerou, or someone who has an opinion. I cannot comprehend what you are doing.
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