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  #121  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:01 PM
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Human s/n #098621 Human s/n #098621 is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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THIS I can believe in. I am glad that you’re not an imaginary grandiose monster monkey.
Who knows?

a) i could tell you that i am not imaginary, but you would have to believe me. What would be a proof that not all that is going around is just some processing and thinking in your mind? What is existence and proof of it?

b) perhaps i am super duper monster monkey? What difference would it make? Most likely we won't never meet in person, so as long as my input is considered valid or intelligent enough, you most probably would think that i am an (at least somewhat) intelligent being, and therefore communicate.

c) it depends. You make the verdict.

d) you are lucky to know what you are. I don't know what i am. Please consider to help me identifying my type.
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  #122  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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you cant trust other peoples judgment; look at the popularity of cold play and naziism.
I don't trust any one. Not even myself.

Naziism is not popular. It is a disease. It spreads. And it had nothing to do with belief in something. It was a world-view, not a religion.

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understanding and expression are one.
I thought expression is a means of communication? I can only understand what i am able to perceive. The key is communication. If we would talk about the same concept of "absolute", it would be much easier.
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  #123  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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I don't trust any one. Not even myself.
That's a bad origo, isn't it?
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  #124  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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That's a bad origo, isn't it?
I am sorry, but i don't understand the term "origo". What does it mean?
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  #125  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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i could tell you that i am not imaginary, but you would have to [b]believe me.
No.

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What would be a proof that not all that is going around is just some processing and thinking in your mind? What is existence and proof of it?
Noone knows exactly. Just don't extrapolate from nothing to everything because such an act defines absolute stupidity from my perspective.

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perhaps i am super duper monster monkey?
That would be cool. Are you?

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you most probably would think that i am an (at least somewhat) intelligent being, and therefore communicate.
You've already proved that.

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it depends. You make the verdict.
No, I don't suffer from narcissistic personality disorder (yet)...
I don't want to be the judge over you, that's all. Love your life. I try to love everyones ones life. Am I good at it?

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you are lucky to know what you are. I don't know what i am.
You can classify yourself in any way. Socionics is a cool way (for me) of doing it. Trust your instinct. Just be. Just be...
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  #126  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Naziism is not popular. It is a disease. It spreads. And it had nothing to do with belief in something. It was a world-view, not a religion.
Naziism WAS popular. Why was it a disease? Doesn't democracy spread? Why didn't it have to do with belief in something? Don't you have to believe in something to have a world view? Isn't any religion a world view?

But yeah, i agree with vibration: a Super Duper Monster Monkey WOULD be pretty cool.
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  #127  
Old 16/03/2006, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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i could tell you that i am not imaginary, but you would have to [b]believe me.
No.
You are more to earth than me.

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Noone knows exactly. Just don't extrapolate from nothing to everything because such an act defines absolute stupidity from my perspective.
You are right. It just felt right to argue about something absolute...

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perhaps i am super duper monster monkey?
That would be cool. Are you?
Would you believe me...

Quote:
You've already proved that.
Thanks for your kindness.

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I don't want to be the judge over you, that's all. Love your life. I try to love everyones ones life. Am I good at it? [Embarrassed]
I guess so. It really isn't my strongest side. Let's hope others love you too.

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You can classify yourself in any way. Socionics is a cool way (for me) of doing it. Trust your instinct. Just be. Just be.
Thanks, i already tried. There is a topic in this forum called "Need help to type me". I'd really appreciate your help.
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  #128  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Naziism WAS popular. Why was it a disease? Doesn't democracy spread? Why didn't it have to do with belief in something? Don't you have to believe in something to have a world view? Isn't any religion a world view?
So much questions...

a) it was a disease because it was irrational, highly emotional, a corruption of facts (there is no such thing as a superior race), spreading, hampering abilities and possibilities, and even infected the ones who should have known better.
b) did i say democracy is not a disease?
c) naziism was not their belief, it was their knowledge, their morals and ethics.
d) i don't know. Honestly. But wouldn't an interpretation or evaluation be sufficient? Is there need of any dogma?
e) definitely not. Religion may be part of a world-view, as is culture, morale etc.

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But yeah, i agree with vibration: a Super Duper Monster Monkey WOULD be pretty cool
It only depends on your verdict. Aren't ENTPs innovative?
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  #129  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Human s/n #098621:
I am sorry, but i don't understand the term "origo". What does it mean?
Starting point!
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  #130  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Originally posted by Human s/n #098621:
a) it was a disease because it was irrational, highly emotional, a corruption of facts (there is no such thing as a superior race), spreading, hampering abilities and possibilities, and even infected the ones who should have known better.
b) did i say democracy is not a disease?
c) naziism was not their belief, it was their knowledge, their morals and ethics.
d) i don't know. Honestly. But wouldn't an interpretation or evaluation be sufficient? Is there need of any dogma?
e) definitely not. Religion may be part of a world-view, as is culture, morale etc.

Quote:
But yeah, i agree with vibration: a Super Duper Monster Monkey WOULD be pretty cool
It only depends on your verdict. Aren't ENTPs innovative? [/QB]
You can say the entire world is a disease then(which I assume you will come close to doing). I disagree that naziism a.k.a. "National Socialism" is any less correct than any other world view. It did contain religious elements and influences, also. I also disagree about your speculations about morality and find your entire argument to be based upon hindsight and also social factors which you have pinned on Nazi Germany, but also exist in you, right now. I just think your arguments are
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  #131  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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You can say the entire world is a disease then(which I assume you will come close to doing)
No, i won't. The world and not even humanity are a disease, only their ideologies are.

Quote:
I disagree that naziism a.k.a. "National Socialism" is any less correct than any other world view.
Interestingly, that would be a dangerous thesis to support in our so-called democracy here. Anyway, any world-view that is harmfully biased other views can not be correct in my opinion.

Quote:
It did contain religious elements and influences, also
At times, it even had good relations to the catholic church... some of their insignia were blessed.

Quote:
I also disagree about your speculations about morality and find your entire argument to be based upon hindsight [...]
The book "Mein Kampf" was written way before the nazis rised to power, and they had their enemies.
But you are partly right, world war one was a main cause that lead to them.
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  #132  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Well, I'm convinced you're an ethical type.
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  #133  
Old 16/03/2006, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Originally posted by time is being:
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are we not absolute beings?
WHAT thought (not what person) made you say that?

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and i refuse to believe in anything. i require proof. dasein?
I think I heard this stuff from before. This stuff is vague, very vague isn't it?

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you cant trust other peoples judgment;
Agree. So why should I trust yours?

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communication is only flawed if your understanding is flawed.
Well if you have a banana in your mouth we don't hear you. (Sorry i just had to say that)

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there is only one way of expressing understanding.
Here you go again...

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if the understanding is not expressed, then it is not understood.
The Sound of silence...

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do not misunderstand: understanding and expression are one.
I think I know what you refer to, but you're doing it very sloppy in a convienient way... (maybe it's your cover)?

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the idea that each person has his/her own idea and expresses it in his/her own way is preposterous, because it is an idea.
Your definition of idea is very convenient.

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if someone does not understand, then they have not expressed.
Your definition of understanding is very convenient.

Quote:
true, i cant force someone to express, but then they cant complain if they dont understand.
Well, that last remark didn't add anything at all to the picture did it?

You might be right, time is being, but I'm not impressed. I need to hear it from you that you obviously understand what you are saying. Don't get me wrong, maybe you understand everything but all you do and all you have done so far, is referring to someone else, something else, a book , a poem, and God only knows what more...
Thing is: I don't respect that.
But that's me.
For me parrots are worse than monkeys.
Ok?
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  #134  
Old 16/03/2006, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Originally posted by Vibration:
I need to hear it from you that you obviously understand what you are saying.
LOL, sometimes I wonder the same thing.
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  #135  
Old 16/03/2006, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Originally posted by SG:

I need to hear it from you that you obviously understand what you are saying.
LOL, sometimes I wonder the same thing.
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  #136  
Old 17/03/2006, 07:51 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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if by parroting, you mean that i have not given you an original thought, but have stolen from other sources, then you are very wrong. i refer to other sources because subtle but very consequential connections might have been missed, and furthermore giving these connections help to articulate. why do you need to hear understanding from me? if it does not come from you, then you will never understand. remember: understanding and expression are one.

i am not asking you to accept my judgment, my agenda is self serving.

understanding is still possible with a banana in your mouth, therefore expression is possible, (even necessary). what does understanding require of us then? what is that act? the most straight forward answer is expression, but some may find that unsatisfying. how is it possible to express? how do we express? this is something i am currently interested in, and socionics has huge implications for understanding. every person and every type expresses as it understands. how then, could there be only one way of expressing understanding? because every person/type performs the same act: the act of being.

and despite being in danger of confusing the issue by referring to something else: the issue of observer having influence on observed is being explored in contemporary physics, see copenhagen interpretation. if one does not see the importance of this issue for us today, he/she can acquaint themselves. socioncs has a chance of being seen as legitimate within the scientific community(if one values that).

what is more absolute than your own being? can you not say, i am? from where would one say, i am not?

SG: yes, i could write in a manner that would not lead anyone to have such questions, but then it wouldnt be understanding. Epistemilogical explorations are often confusing, but is not socionics a new knowledge?
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  #137  
Old 17/03/2006, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

maybe this will help: understanding requires something of us. my understanding required something of me. what i write requires something of the reader. if i write in a manner that would be accepted and requires nothing of the reader, then it would not be understanding.

what is required? Being. (expression=Being).

it is good to ask questions. it is important to be cognizant of where the answer comes from. if it comes from a mental framework that we already have or from memory, then we are tresspassing on dangerous ground because it is disconnected with what IS. our mental framework may or may not reflect what IS.

so, if we want to see what IS, then we must BE. if your answer to the "question" is not your Being, then you do not see what IS.
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  #138  
Old 17/03/2006, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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remember: understanding and expression are one.
My point of view as as follows:

Message = Payload + Expression (flawed)
Understanding = Decoding (flawed) + Interpretation (flawed)

Communication fails more often then it works in the way intended. It's nice that at least sometimes we can make sense out of it. There is a chance that communication works better if sender and recipient share the same language and the same background (general speaking), but even in this case there is a lot of interpreting (filtering, introducing ones state of mind) going on.

But yes, understanding depends on expression. If expression becomes better, understanding will be easier. In this regard, understanding and expression are one (highly abstracted).
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  #139  
Old 17/03/2006, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

[/quote]To me, expression is a means of communication. Understanding is the process of decoding ingoing communication. If you use this terms in another meaning, please define.[quote]

is the process of decoding ingoing information not expression? does our selection/process not say much about us? hence: understanding=expression.
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  #140  
Old 17/03/2006, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Human s/n #098621:

Message = Payload + Expression (flawed)
Understanding = Decoding (flawed) + Interpretation (flawed)
It is probably more like:

Message = Encoding + Delivery
Understanding = Decoding + Interpretation

Every stage could be flawed, makes me think that the communication is more like a game of chance.
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