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  #81  
Old 10/03/2006, 11:05 AM
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Prometheus Prometheus is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Oh ... big sigh ... Here we go again, acting like marionettes in the hands of our Lord, the almighty Quasi-Identity ...

If you really want me to go, I will go too, SG, but I had just begun to think that this forum had become a really intellectually stimulating place. I want to learn more about types and type relations, but in order to do that properly I can't give up just because I feel slightly uncomfortable discussing with some one who might be my Quasi-Identical. I think I have been discussing with one Quasi-Identical my whole life, and with several others from time to time. We never seem to understand each other in full, but at least I feel that we can have very interesting and stimulating debates anyway. One of the things that I find very mysterious, but extremely intriguing, is exactly these differences between INTjs and INTps. That's one enigma I want to solve, or at least understand why it can't be solved.

If you disappear from the forum, Jonathan, it would be a less stimulating place for me personally but still very interesting. I had my doubts first too, as your description of how you experience the situation is very similar to mine.

But now, when we all are aware of the possibility that we perhaps are "prisoners" in the Quasi-Identical jailhouse, why can't we try to handle that minor problem? We are still T-types, aren't we, SG and Jonathan? So why should we let our irrational feelings control us and set limits to our mutual curiousity and fascination in the world of types?
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  #82  
Old 10/03/2006, 11:17 AM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
But now, when we all are aware of the possibility that we perhaps are "prisoners" in the Quasi-Identical jailhouse, why can't we try to handle that minor problem?
Try short posts.
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  #83  
Old 10/03/2006, 03:09 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

which links should we click on?
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  #84  
Old 10/03/2006, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Vibration:
Try short posts.
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  #85  
Old 10/03/2006, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
which links should we click on?
I appreciate if you don't click on ad links unless you are genuinely curious about the content.
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  #86  
Old 10/03/2006, 07:49 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
which links should we click on?
I appreciate if you don't click on ad links unless you are genuinely curious about the content.
really? it seems so inconsequential to give a few clicks to support the forum. or are you saying that because you are not allowed to solicit clicks, and the forum is monitored? maybe i will just click away...are the ads at the top ok, the ones that say ads by google, or the ones at the bottom about mbti and other sites that i have seen a hundred times?
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  #87  
Old 10/03/2006, 09:14 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

i was thinking of cashing out on your website. just bring speed dating and socionics together and charge people. its brilliant. $$$£££
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  #88  
Old 11/03/2006, 03:06 AM
Jonathan Jonathan is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
SG: In fact, I think you owe me for your free drink but you don't see it this way, do you?
This will be my last post on this site, I promise, since I don't mean to antagonize anyone. However, just to show that I don't harbor any ill-will towards you, I'm willing to buy you that free drink...except I don't know how to buy a drink online. So, pick anything from Amazon under $15, and tell me the address where you'd like it shipped, and I'll get it for you. You can send me a private message if you like.

Anyhow, I'm really sorry that I bothered you with my posts. I guess they were kind of long and may have sounded arrogant and uninformed to someone who has studied Socionics for years.

I apologize for any negativity that may have come through from any of my posts. Sometimes people make a god out of their own psychological makeup and rub people the wrong way because of it, and that doesn't do anyone any good. Please accept my apology.
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  #89  
Old 11/03/2006, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
i was thinking of cashing out on your website. just bring speed dating and socionics together and charge people. its brilliant. $$$£££
He'd have competition.
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  #90  
Old 11/03/2006, 08:00 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

If you are so eager to support the forum I can give you my personal bank details so you can donate rather large amount of money. Or you can give me some cash when we meet.
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  #91  
Old 11/03/2006, 09:54 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:
Quote:
SG: In fact, I think you owe me for your free drink but you don't see it this way, do you?
This will be my last post on this site, I promise, since I don't mean to antagonize anyone. However, just to show that I don't harbor any ill-will towards you, I'm willing to buy you that free drink...except I don't know how to buy a drink online. So, pick anything from Amazon under $15, and tell me the address where you'd like it shipped, and I'll get it for you. You can send me a private message if you like.

Anyhow, I'm really sorry that I bothered you with my posts. I guess they were kind of long and may have sounded arrogant and uninformed to someone who has studied Socionics for years.

I apologize for any negativity that may have come through from any of my posts. Sometimes people make a god out of their own psychological makeup and rub people the wrong way because of it, and that doesn't do anyone any good. Please accept my apology.
You still don't get it, do you?
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  #92  
Old 11/03/2006, 01:51 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
i was thinking of cashing out on your website. just bring speed dating and socionics together and charge people. its brilliant. $$$£££
He'd have competition.
someone is doing this already? if a group of random people showed up, as in speed dating, there would have to be a socionixpert to type and match people quickly. or do people type themselves before showing up to the speed date?
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  #93  
Old 11/03/2006, 05:15 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Vibration:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:
I figure Ne might say, "Hey, I see someone said A=B over here, and someone said B=C over there...connection...A=C." Ni might say "I see this triangular relationship that suddenly comes to me somewhere from my experience, which I'll formulate as A=B and B=C means A=C.
The ideas are complete random and have now connection whatsoever. This dreamy process can go on for several seconds and in best cases several minutes.
With my Ti I can later on easily downtrack possible origins of those ideas based on others ideas that came up at completely other occasions.
I think my Ne recognizes similarities in an almost unconcious way and my concious Ti proves how perfect similarities they really are and also in where the similarity is, and how general or useful the idea really is (99% is crap).
Actually, 1 billion new ideas start popping up during my analysis so I can't really separate Ne from Ti.

So:
Please describe in an analogous way, if it is possible, how your mind work.
No firewalls please!
I'm really curious!
your description is almost entirely T. seeing connections is not intuition, that is Thinking. going from one object to the next like an index is Thinking. this "networking" that you are describing is T. N does not recognize differences or similarities. again, that activity is T. N is illogical, so when i try to describe it to you, you must use suspend your logical T to "see". feel free to re-read some of my past posts. there are degrees of "seeing", the collective unconcious being the deepest. it is about how you engage with every facet of reality, including the interpretation of text.

"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself."

http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/define.htmlread the first paragraph about jess hollenbeck (near the bottom of the page)

a discussion of the relationship of N to T is for another post.
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  #94  
Old 11/03/2006, 06:55 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

[quote]Originally posted by time is being:
Quote:
N does not recognize differences or similarities. again, that activity is T.
Oh no and oh yes... you see, N really discovers the similarity... T can verify that it is a similarity. The N-discovery might appear very novel and new at first sight but analysis will downtrack its (possible) origin.

I tried to describe how I work from my perspective and from what I've heard from other people watching me "when it happens".

Maybe my description appears "T" or something.
You have to filter the crap and dig out the essence in order to improve your understanding of types I guess.
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  #95  
Old 11/03/2006, 07:15 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:

"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself."
This is ok. I like this. I could never write like this. This is Ni-style. This is virtual reality.
It's not for real but it's quite good anyway. If you cut out the god-stuff it might improve the feeling a lot. No offense, but god is really out of date from my perspective, heathen as I am. Basically the first sentence is the best. The other sentences decompose the overall picture.
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  #96  
Old 11/03/2006, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

I would agree with Vibe on that, N pulls similarities or differences and T explains a connection.

For example:

123123123

N says the common element is 123
T says it is connected in sequence 3 times.

12312302342340345345

N says there are 3 common elements which form pattern 123 234 and 345
T explains how it all put together, each new pattern 2 times separated by 0 in ascending order.

What is common between 1st and 2nd sequence?
N says 123 or even 123123 which is a pattern within a pattern.

Jees, I am enjoying doing this, it must be some sort of Ne exercise.
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  #97  
Old 11/03/2006, 07:48 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
I would agree with Vibe on that, N pulls similarities or differences and T explains a connection.

For example:

123123123

N says the common element is 123
T says it is connected in sequence 3 times.

12312302342340345345

N says there are 3 common elements which form pattern 123 234 and 345
T explains how it all put together, each new pattern 2 times separated by 0 in ascending order.

What is common between 1st and 2nd sequence?
N says 123 or even 123123 which is a pattern within a pattern.

Jees, I am enjoying doing this, it must be some sort of Ne exercise.
Hehe, your speculation is actually quite close to my reality.

I wonder if there is a difference between Ni and Ne here.

Simply, I wonder if I discover Ti-structures (some kind of cause and effect structures) and Ni-guys discover Te-structures (hard core logic structures).

or simpler

Ne discovers the causal structure (structure of Ti-info) and Ni discovers the effectual structure (structure of Te-info)?


I'm a little bit drunk actually. Haha! Have to go to and get some sleep now. See ya!
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  #98  
Old 11/03/2006, 07:53 PM
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Nyx Nyx is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
i was thinking of cashing out on your website. just bring speed dating and socionics together and charge people. its brilliant. $$$£££
He'd have competition.
someone is doing this already? if a group of random people showed up, as in speed dating, there would have to be a socionixpert to type and match people quickly. or do people type themselves before showing up to the speed date?
I didn't look into the particulars, but I've encountered socionics-based matchmaking communities online.
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  #99  
Old 12/03/2006, 07:56 AM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:

"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself."
.
Quote:
it is important to answer the question: what is the author showing us by saying that the building of churches and cathedrals removes the lord from us?
The author is showing pictures that tell me the following:
We need to calibrate ourselves against nature in order to be happy. Gods message to us and Gods answer to all our questions lies in Nature and not in churches and cathedrals. It is not the building, texts, rituals and ceremonies that are important, it is the very message from Nature that we should listen to ultimately. Basically, what he is saying is that we should remove all firewalls (communication barriers) between us and Him. It is a good message and I believe in it in my special Socionics-way.

Quote:
when answering this question, it becomes clear that to understand what is being said, no part can be thrown away.
Well I think there is much that can thrown away and boiled down to hard core statements or equations. But this is because I use Ti for understanding something. You use Ni for understanding. Ni is like a picture I guess, if you remove the dots from the picture is not as clear anymore. I would see it this way instead: The more data point I have the better the construction of my equations and the more "true" my theory might be.

Quote:
and god cannot be understood in a T manner.
Actually he can be understood in a T-manner but you might need Ti to understand it...
And I'd need Ni to see it...

Quote:
the only illusion/virtual reality is your understanding. "Ni-style".
Haha yes maybe you’re right. But INTp’s foundations for creating Ni-understanding are actually no more certain than the Ti-findings they rest upon. I think the opposite is true as well: Ti-findings rest on Ni-findings.

Quote:
The N understanding is more real than any other understanding.
I don’t think so. I think S-understanding is the most real understanding there is. Why do you think N is “the realest”? Taking a warm bath, listening to some laid back music, eating crackers with cheese and drinking a glass of red wine on a Friday evening can be a real insight!
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  #100  
Old 12/03/2006, 08:14 AM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Vibration:
Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:

"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself."
This is ok. I like this. I could never write like this. This is Ni-style. This is virtual reality.
It's not for real but it's quite good anyway. If you cut out the god-stuff it might improve the feeling a lot. No offense, but god is really out of date from my perspective, heathen as I am. Basically the first sentence is the best. The other sentences decompose the overall picture.
it is important to answer the question: what is the author showing us by saying that the building of churches and cathedrals removes the lord from us? when answering this question, it becomes clear that to understand what is being said, no part can be thrown away. and god cannot be understood in a T manner. your "overall picture" that is "decomposed" is an image created by your T function. the only illusion/virtual reality is your understanding. "Ni-style". The N understanding is more real than any other understanding.

i found a site that stole my ideas:
http://www.crcsite.org/intuition.htm
i have no idea what these "rosicrucians" are about though.
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