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  #1  
Old 08/04/2010, 08:30 PM
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Default k0rps3y, autism, etc.

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What's with all the attacking?
Who was I attacking? What part of what I said was an attack?

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Prom afaik - has the view that a person is the same type on all the 3 systems because the dichotomies are the same on all the systems. He has a point to an extent, they are at least described (when you look at dichotomy description) fairly similar.
I disagree with Prom, and I'm telling Corpsey that I think suck thinking is incorrect.

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Apparently autistic people are more likely to test at NT types - however, that doesn't mean they are NT types, it simply means that's what they test as. I've known some aspergers people. I have even known an Fe type aspergers. Perhaps not necessarily fair to put on one example, but this guy was ... kinda dangerous, sort of like evil Brian (or at least what an evil Brian could be like) from family guy.
Absolutely. The nature of autism is really similar to an extreme form of what is often attributed to Ni leading.

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In regards to korpsies type, I said I wouldn't question it again, and I haven't, but I agree INTp seems more likely from the further details.
I'm glad we're in agreement.

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Oh, regards to starting another thread, why? Speak to a mod or mind your own business, it's kinda irritating having someone pop up with these suggestions, randomly attacking another user (Prom) then stating something as fact yourself...which is sort of what Prom does?
For the record, I started my response to the rest of the thread before I noticed it was Abeille's thread.

Also, I didn't attack Prom, I simply said the systems are different. Even Prom would agree that the theories are fundamentally different, he just thinks the types correlate between them.

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Anyway, I disagree with the implication that socionic type can't help with career choice. If you see my other thread you will see there is pattern, and I won't dispute what my eyes tell me. Please be more open minded.
I'm not saying it can't, just like MBTI isn't incapable of predicting comfortable relationships. I'm saying they were designed with different goals in mind. I think socionics can apply to career choice in a somewhat clumsy manner, as long as you look at specific careers and how much they use various ego functions. The best indicator I've seen is based on club.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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Old 08/04/2010, 08:37 PM
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From the previous thread:

Cyclops:

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If you have studied Jungs psychological types, and studied what it really means to be an extravert, you would realise that Me Me Me is not particularly the behaviour of an introvert.
The me-ism I spoke of stems not from an extrovert's prideful egotism but an introvert's skeptical solipsism. I was tempted to say this explicity before but opted instead for simpler and apparently less precise language.

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Oh, regards to starting another thread, why?
Because the original thread was about someone else. Feel free to hit me up with as many questions as you choose, but since doing so in the original thread noisily obscures responses to Abeille's questions, I'd also much rather take it elsewhere.

stanprollyright:

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I warn you, k0rps3y, not to combine MBTI, Kiersey, and socionics.
See here and "about me" here.

Last edited by k0rps3y; 08/04/2010 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 08/04/2010, 09:03 PM
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See here and "about me" here.
The issue is not the use of the theories, rather the assumption that they are compatible with each other. If you keep the three separate, there shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 09/04/2010, 12:37 AM
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The me-ism I spoke of stems not from an extrovert's prideful egotism but an introvert's skeptical solipsism.
Any type can be egocentric.

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The issue is not the use of the theories, rather the assumption that they are compatible with each other. If you keep the three separate, there shouldn't be a problem.
Exactly.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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Old 09/04/2010, 09:27 AM
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If you want to know what Prom thinks maybe you can PM him, otherwise please take your ridiculous persistance elsewhere - or at least, don't involve me. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by stanprollyright
Absolutely. The nature of autism is really similar to an extreme form of what is often attributed to Ni leading.
I can't resist myself. This is just insanity.

If you follow the works of Swiss neurobiologists Kamila and Henry Makram, you will see that among the most recent hyposits is that autism comes about from a hypersensitivity to the world, that is, the autistic experiences the senses so strongly that the brain is unable to process it, it leaves the brain overwhelmed.

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Originally Posted by AUTISM
IMAGINE a world where every sound jars like a jackhammer, every light is a blinding strobe, clothes feel like sandpaper and even your own mother's face appears as a jumble of frightening and disconnected pieces. This, say neuroscientists Kamila and Henry Markram of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, is how it feels to be autistic.
THAT is what the mind of an autist is like, THAT has nothing to do with Ni, nor is it attributed to Ni in any way that I can think of, even "extreme" Ni.

There's maybe something wrong with our 'duality', even when apparently agreeing there is strife, hmmm.

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Originally Posted by stanprollyright
I'm not saying it can't, just like MBTI isn't incapable of predicting comfortable relationships. I'm saying they were designed with different goals in mind. I think socionics can apply to career choice in a somewhat clumsy manner, as long as you look at specific careers and how much they use various ego functions. The best indicator I've seen is based on club.
Well, are you familiar with all the socionists and their take on this? Leaving aside what a 'socionist' is just now, if you have heard of Tatyana Prokofieva, she is head of some socionics institute in Ukraine. She has written articles relating type to career choice, indeed she believes in order to excel we need a job which uses our ego block.

I suppose I have issues with you stating things as fact when they are not, that is one of the things I see as 'attacking", notwithstanding that you probably don't understand where Prom is coming from, and that he hasn't posted for months.

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Originally Posted by k0rps3y
The me-ism I spoke of stems not from an extrovert's prideful egotism but an introvert's skeptical solipsism. I was tempted to say this explicity before but opted instead for simpler and apparently less precise language.
I'm aware you meant it in a different context, that is why I was joking - that is why I explained I was joking, however, as you persisted I decided to assist you with an explanation.

Feel free to use it, or not.

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Originally Posted by k0rps3y
The me-ism I spoke of stems not from an extrovert's prideful egotism but an introvert's skeptical solipsism. I was ]Because the original thread was about someone else. Feel free to hit me up with as many questions as you choose, but since doing so in the original thread noisily obscures responses to Abeille's questions, I'd also much rather take it elsewhere.
I don't remember asking you this, it was directed towards another user, perhaps you missed that.

In regards to asking you questions, I appreciate the offer, if something comes up which I think may be of interest to me, i'll ask.

I'll say however, if you want to combine different Jung typologies, as far as i'm concerned it's up to you, it depends whether it is useful for you or not, it is not a socionic concentration camp afaik.

Last edited by Cyclops; 09/04/2010 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 10/04/2010, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
If you follow the works of Swiss neurobiologists Kamila and Henry Makram, you will see that among the most recent hyposits is that autism comes about from a hypersensitivity to the world, that is, the autistic experiences the senses so strongly that the brain is unable to process it, it leaves the brain overwhelmed.

THAT is what the mind of an autist is like, THAT has nothing to do with Ni, nor is it attributed to Ni in any way that I can think of, even "extreme" Ni.
Autism isn't type related, autism has nothing to do with Ni. All I'm saying is that from an outsider's perspective an autistic person appears disconnected from reality, a trait that is often attributed to Ni types.

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Well, are you familiar with all the socionists and their take on this? Leaving aside what a 'socionist' is just now, if you have heard of Tatyana Prokofieva, she is head of some socionics institute in Ukraine. She has written articles relating type to career choice, indeed she believes in order to excel we need a job which uses our ego block.
You can apply your ego functions to any career. Finding a "niche" within your job where your ego functions are used frequently I think is more useful than career/type stereotypes.

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I suppose I have issues with you stating things as fact when they are not, that is one of the things I see as 'attacking", notwithstanding that you probably don't understand where Prom is coming from, and that he hasn't posted for months.
What statements are you talking about? When writing you try to stay away from "I think" and "I feel" and "in my opinion" because it's redundant and it weakens your position. Obviously, everything in my posts is what I believe, think, etc. As for Prom, why do you keep bringing him into this?
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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Old 08/06/2010, 10:40 PM
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k0rps3y, i wonder if you're INFp
well, i don't wonder thaat much, lol, just saying.
PS: ignore if you're "set in your ways", as it were
cheers
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Old 09/06/2010, 01:59 AM
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felafel: k0rps3y, i wonder if you're INFp
well, i don't wonder thaat much, lol, just saying.
Well, almost every test I've taken over the years has said INTx with a strong T, usually P, never J. The only odd duck was an ISTP from a Kiersey test. Any F-ness you're seeing probably comes from a lifetime of scrutinizing people and their inner workings, and from postmortem examinations of a semi-recently flunked romance.
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Old 09/06/2010, 02:13 PM
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and from postmortem examinations of a semi-recently flunked romance
So when am I going to see your stuff being published? Seriously, I love the way you write!
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Old 09/06/2010, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
Well, almost every test I've taken over the years has said INTx with a strong T, usually P, never J. The only odd duck was an ISTP from a Kiersey test. Any F-ness you're seeing probably comes from a lifetime of scrutinizing people and their inner workings, and from postmortem examinations of a semi-recently flunked romance.
I don't really have much on your type tbh, fwiw I could see INFp because from at least my perspective you seem to use a lot of complex jargon and ways of saying things, imho this is more of an INFp thing than an INTp thing. I dunno if I can explain it with socionics per se but in short and rather simply I suppose: it seems to work out that the T in INTp makes them more concise (even if they're wrong) maybe concise isn't always the right word, however the F in INFp makes them more 'poetic'/dramatic, and coupled with their weak T they can talk for a long time with such ways of phrasing but not really have that much of a point in comparison to the prose. Maybe Beta NF wants to sound more dramatic/important or something as well.

I'm not sure you're dry enough for typical INTp Fe PoLR

Anyway I don't think scoring on tests is sufficient on its own - you could look into other socionics related stuff.

Oh, I don't want to talk about this if you don't want to. I also simply don't have enough info from your posts atm for me to be sure. I sure would be interested if felafel had some thoughts as well
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Old 09/06/2010, 07:25 PM
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Hey K0rps3y, just a couple of things as to why I brought this up, in case you're still open to discussing this. Hope the disclaimer is self-evident, that many times i plan on using ime & imo

On a thread on INTp& INFp relations (http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1666) you say:
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Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
Trying to control others is a result of narcissism. The only relation that has to personality type is coloring the manner and intent of the way that control is exerted.
The "narcissism" bit jumped out, thought maybe it wasn't quite coming from an INTp perspective, at least not that of those I've known who're also familiar with socionics. My reasoning went sth. like this: an INTp would recognize that that description of INTp was biased, coming from INFp who's frustrated living with INTp, furthermore, would know certain effects of Fe on INTp - Fe is not sth they necessarily welcome. I thought INTp might consider that poor INTp described was maybe having a pretty hard time himself trying to handle Fe while not getting any, Se or Fi I mean, mind you!

On the same thread:
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Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
It's a general observation of mine that those who attempt to control others are unwilling or incapable of entertaining thoughts or ways of life other than their own. Whether it springs from the ego-inflation of narcissism or the externality-annihilation of solipsism, it's a selfish means of resolving ambiguous and adversarial psycho-social factors (i.e. the thoughts and behaviors of one's fellows) at the cost of others' personal identities and values.
Through reasons based solely on my experience I've come to associate this kind of insight into certain universal aspects of human nature with INFp. What you're doing is extract the essence (ie. Ni, imo) and color it, so to speak, with a certain way of phrasing it, almost as if you're pitching sth.

Also, fairly uneconomical use of words for an INTp, ime/o. Was thinking, an INTp would edit the hell out of that phrase, lol. Ime/o & understanding of socionics, Ip temperament more than any other temperaments strives to conserve energy as much as possible. Furthermore, in my observation, INTp do this maybe more than other Ip-s (maybe ISTp are similar, not sure, and maybe subtype matters in that respect too). My own post here should tell you i'm no Ip at all

And then, there is this, which I also thought of:
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
I don't really have much on your type tbh, fwiw I could see INFp because from at least my perspective you seem to use a lot of complex jargon and ways of saying things, imho this is more of an INFp thing than an INTp thing. I dunno if I can explain it with socionics per se but in short and rather simply I suppose: it seems to work out that the T in INTp makes them more concise (even if they're wrong) maybe concise isn't always the right word, however the F in INFp makes them more 'poetic'/dramatic, and coupled with their weak T they can talk for a long time with such ways of phrasing but not really have that much of a point in comparison to the prose.
If cool with you (even if unfair), 2 words I'd describe INTp way of speaking by: terse and anticlimactic. Most Fi or Fi valuers tend to be anticlimactic, ime: nothing dramatic, unless they're joking around or making fun of themselves. Also, can't remember what thread it was on, but you posted somewhere about being bothered (or sth along those lines, can't remember verbatim) for having used one word instead of another in some post! LOL, can't really see INTp doing that, again, imo. Although, words are important, sometimes.

But there is also this:
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Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
Any F-ness you're seeing probably comes from a lifetime of scrutinizing people and their inner workings, and from postmortem examinations of a semi-recently flunked romance.
........which might be true, I don't know your life experiences or circumstances and prefer not to probe into *private* "flunked romances" . BTW, hope you're good and not feeling down on account of that last bit you speak of. Cheers

Edit1: re. INTp not bothering with re-thinking words they've said, i meant that before they speak or type would have thought sth. over and over in their head so wouldn't usually need to sub. some words for others after the fact.
Edit2: not quite suggesting you're "pitching" your insights into the human nature, only that, if i'm "reading" any Fe correctly, to me it would come across as "packaging an idea", in a manner of speaking (which may even be incorrect).

Last edited by felafel; 09/06/2010 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11/06/2010, 12:29 AM
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The "narcissism" bit jumped out, thought maybe it wasn't quite coming from an INTp perspective, at least not that of those I've known who're also familiar with socionics.
Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism denoting vanity, conceit, egotism or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.

Refusing to stop badgering another seems to fit the bill, even if, or perhaps especially if, this unsolicited guidance is well intended.

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2 words I'd describe INTp way of speaking by: terse and anticlimactic.
I'm much more expressive on the page than in person. In meatspace it might be difficult to get more than a "Hmmm" or an "I see" out of me all day, though people say I've got a way with words and I can be very talkative if a subject comes up that I've given much thought. Also, Gabriel Garcia Marquez is described as ILI on many a socionics site and his books contain some of the longest, most colorful sentences around, and Balzac, after whom the type is often named, didn't stint when it came to throwing words around either.

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Most Fi or Fi valuers tend to be anticlimactic, ime: nothing dramatic, unless they're joking around or making fun of themselves. Also, can't remember what thread it was on, but you posted somewhere about being bothered (or sth along those lines, can't remember verbatim) for having used one word instead of another in some post! LOL, can't really see INTp doing that, again, imo.
Guess who was making fun of himself.

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I don't know your life experiences or circumstances and prefer not to probe into *private* "flunked romances" . BTW, hope you're good and not feeling down on account of that last bit you speak of.
Thanks. Romantic entanglements are my Achilles heel and I hope to never go through such a wringer again, though it has been particularly educational. Seems I need to be more mindful of others and soften my criticisms to prevent from trampling people's tender feelings with the truth.
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Old 11/06/2010, 08:40 AM
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^Fair enough, kudos to you for taking my suggestion into account, regardless.

If i can indulge you a little more though, for the selfish reason that i'm in the mood and merry just now, there's a good chance Marquez may not be ILI but IEI. I grant you Balzac, what with the type description being named after him and all (by Gulenko, i think..?). I've only read Balzac a long time ago, so can't remember a lot, but his main running theme seems to have been an upward mobility and/or success and the inevitable failure of his characters to achieve it. He seems to acknowledge "other forces" in society of the time that made their progress impossible (their background, their inability to successfully navigate and "use", so to speak, contacts in the upper strata of society etc.) Doomsday all around with him!

Marquez, again, haven't read anything from him in a very long time, but i seem to remember a certain preoccupation with human solitude, love and loss and lovers re-uniting in their old days, some universal truths about life, but mainly love and a whole lot of emotional masturbation (hey, i did say i'm merry + he's a big man with fire in his belly and a Nobel prize to boot, he won't mind. He smiles pretty too, nicely showing off a full set of teeth (no, he doesn't green, that was me). Ni, of course, but so much Fe too. For an INTp, at least. Or so i think.

As en epilogue though, INTp-s are not word-challenged, oh they can really bend words if they're important to the point they're making, but they pick them carefully and use them sparsely (just an aside, really). Balzac did live in the ...what century was it? 2 centuries ago, i think. I guess the Zeitgeist of the times and literature were a little different...maybe...in writing style...?

nite
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Old 11/06/2010, 11:17 AM
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Marquez, again, haven't read anything from him in a very long time, but i seem to remember a certain preoccupation with human solitude, love and loss and lovers re-uniting in their old days, some universal truths about life, but mainly love and a whole lot of emotional masturbation (hey, i did say i'm merry + he's a big man with fire in his belly and a Nobel prize to boot, he won't mind.
Solitude, universal truths, and emotional wank seem like INTp hallmarks to me. The one is a sign of introversion, the other is the result of erasing distinctions and finding commonalities in pattern-seeking during contemplation, and the last the result of difficulties with expressing oneself emotionally, bottling things up and ruminating on them instead. For the mushy stuff, see the INTp HA. "Hundred Years of Solitude" ended poorly for all characters, with their efforts destroyed by negligent descendants and the march of "progress". The only one who escaped was the beautiful and unearthly woman who flew off into the sky and was presumably apotheosized, though in time she was forgotten as well.

Quote:
He smiles pretty too, nicely showing off a full set of teeth (no, he doesn't green, that was me). Ni, of course, but so much Fe too. For an INTp, at least. Or so i think.
*cough*

Quote:
As en epilogue though, INTp-s are not word-challenged, oh they can really bend words if they're important to the point they're making, but they pick them carefully and use them sparsely (just an aside, really).
I don't see how a thinker of supposedly complex thoughts is going to express those ideas without going beyond grunts and gestures. Different situations call for a range of responses.

Btw, I've pored over several sites like wikisosion.org, socioniko.net, and socionics.org, and the Ni ILI is the best fit, so as my buddy Gabe Marquez says
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Old 11/06/2010, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
Solitude, universal truths, and emotional wank seem like INTp hallmarks to me.
How so? How is that *not* INFp? (Rhetorical questions, answer if you will, in other words they aren't hallmarks of INTp really, but at very least are also INFp)


Quote:
I don't see how a thinker of supposedly complex thoughts is going to express those ideas without going beyond grunts and gestures. Different situations call for a range of responses.
I'm curious if you find it difficult to explain complex thoughts in simple terms, as it *seems* that's what you're getting at.

In other words, I think you do (at least from what I can see), and it ties in with what I mentioned earlier on in last post....

Someone with strong T doesn't have such an issue, and it can be why INTps are more economical with their words, as they *can* summarise complex situations easily - esp if their Ti is strong as well as their Te, basically good T.

---------------------------

Anyway, enough of little quotes here and there from me, fwiw ime of observing others and their types from what i've seen in this ole internet world, that reading type descriptions or sitting tests doesn't work for everyone. I'd suggest looking at clubs, quadra values and functions as well, and probably won't say much else at that, later mate whether INFp or INTp, it's all the same it's only type, lol .

Last edited by Cyclops; 11/06/2010 at 02:07 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11/06/2010, 05:39 PM
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Solitude, universal truths, and emotional wank seem like INTp hallmarks to me.
How so? How is that *not* INFp? (Rhetorical questions, answer if you will, in other words they aren't hallmarks of INTp really, but at very least are also INFp)
While INFps and INTps are both moonbeam catchers, one gives greater value to impressionistic matters of the heart, the other to factual matters of the head. Hiding and intellectualizing emotions don't mean they're absent, so emo wank is quite possible with INTps. One friend goes to great lengths to impress those very few women who impress him but suffers from lack of companionship the rest of the time. Another often bemoans the lack of love in her life and her difficulties fitting in with her fellow medical students.

He is convinced that living is impossible if one disregards the natural laws that regulate the world.

You are well familiar with the structure of the object, its deepest essence...You are observant, imaginative, with the help that fill the missing information on the subject of analysis. [T]he results [of this analysis] represent the illumination. You [are a] philosophizing sage who seeks escape from the madding crowd.

[T]hey rarely speak of their most valued relationships with others to common outsiders that they consider superficial acquaintances...ILIs may love from afar and in their solitude if there is something or someone they love, due to their lack of confidence in their own feelings. Some ILIs may even be closet romantics. ILIs can also be quite sensitive, despite their outward emotional reservation, and are sometimes far more emotionally vulnerable than they appear.

Quote:
I'm curious if you find it difficult to explain complex thoughts in simple terms, as it *seems* that's what you're getting at.

In other words, I think you do (at least from what I can see), and it ties in with what I mentioned earlier on in last post....

Someone with strong T doesn't have such an issue, and it can be why INTps are more economical with their words, as they *can* summarise complex situations easily - esp if their Ti is strong as well as their Te, basically good T.
Why waste time writing a paragraph or three when a handful of choice words will suffice. Spelling out what I regard as self-evident is annoying.

Also, observed behavior doesn't always reveal its underlying mechanisms. With those like myself whose lives unfold mostly in their heads, WYSIWYG is often false.
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