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-   -   J/P? (http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702)

Willow 15/06/2010 11:56 PM

J/P?
 
My Myers-Briggs type is INFP and I know that a lot of INFPs are INFjs. What I was wondering though is whether or not the J/P switch is true of most Socionics types? I was wondering because I know that my husband is a Myers-Briggs INTJ but after reading Socionics type descriptions, I actually think that he might be INTp. Forgive me if this is a dumb question, I know very little about Socionics, actually.

felafel 16/06/2010 12:12 AM

^ I believe Sergei has written an article about this (i believe it's on the website, under articles). cheers

Willow 16/06/2010 12:20 AM

Thanks. I'll check that out

felafel 16/06/2010 12:52 AM

I believe this is it: http://www.socionics.com/articles/jpproblem.htm

PS: maybe Sir Ganin will find the time to reply on here too, who knows ! (and one can always hope;)

This could be helpful too: http://www.socionics.com/articles/howto.htm

I believe there was a recent discussion on the forum too, but can't remember...maybe you could start by a search? Sorry can't be of more help, never had to decide on MBTI/Socion. conversion. cheers

Willow 16/06/2010 01:32 AM

Ok. I've just read that first article and that helps. J and P are defined in a different way than what I'm used to. I'll have to give this some more thought and return to it in the morning. No time at the moment... But I am seeing that it would be better for me to look at dominant functions of INTjs and INTps to determine his type rather than looking at the overall type descriptions which seem simalar in some places. Thanks for your help.:)

Willow 16/06/2010 02:39 AM

Ok, I was able to snatch a little time to myself after all. When I looked at Ti and Ni exclusively, I began to wonder either were his dominant function at all. So I looked at Te and Ne, since, according to that article, Introversion and Extroversion are defined in Socionics not according to whether the person is introverted or extroverted but by whether or not the dominant function is introverted or extroverted. I think he might be Te dominant, actually, which is interesting, considering that he tested as only marginally introverted in the Myers-Briggs system. I'm definately thinking now that he's ENTj.

felafel 16/06/2010 02:41 AM

^ what kind of tests have you guys been taking?

Willow 16/06/2010 03:05 AM

He took a Myers-Briggs test at work. It was something they required the people in his department to do to improve employee relationships or something. I took a Myers-Briggs test in college that was given by a career counselor. And I took a socionics test online. He hasn't taken a socionics test and I just assumed that he would be INTj as he tested as INTJ on the MB test.

felafel 16/06/2010 04:43 AM

^ O.K. I think Sergei's online socionics test (long version on the website under tests) is decent to start out with, if you'd like to give it one more shot. You could both take it, if you care to, not that it's gonna change much:), but just in case you'd like to:)
take care

Willow 16/06/2010 03:22 PM

That's the same online test that I took, actually. There is no way I'd be able to get my husband to take it though. He really doesn't care about any of this stiff and only did the Myers-Briggs thing because he was required to. I tried to take the test for him but I must have done something wrong because the result was ESTj. About the only part of the ESTj description on Wikisocion that matches him is the first part that deals with extroverted logic. Most of the rest doesn't fit. But that has confirmed my feeling that he is Te dominant.

Not only is J and P defined in Socionics different from what I'm used to but also E and I. I always got the impression that anyone who needed a considerable amount of time to themselves to recharge after socializing was an introvert. But the Socionics definition just sounds like an introvert is someone who lives more in the world of their own ideas than in material reality. Interesting, since that way of looking at introversion would seem to make introverts naturally lean toward N over S. And vice versa for extroverts...

But back to the J/P switch... I was suprised to find I am a judging type after being labeled "P". But in a way, it makes sense, really. Fi does seem like a judging function (and apparently according to Jung, it is). From what I understand of this function, it is what describes the way I strongly descriminate on things based on my personal values. I come across a P-like because I'm just not very concearned about most of the things that most people are concearned about. It seems to me that most people are anxious over trivialities and fail to recognize the things in life that really matter. That's why so many people think that I'm wishy-washy and have not real opinions of my own... that is until they touch on something that matters to me. I just don't have strong feelings about the things they themselves are concearned with. It always shocks people when they say something that hits on a nerve with me after they have said something that either contradicts or confirms my opinions based on my deeply held values and beliefs. "I didn't know you had it in you!", is something I get alot from people.

felafel 16/06/2010 05:26 PM

Well, maybe your hubby is ESTj after all and you're really INFj and you'll live happy ever after as a dual couple:) (as it seems to be the case so far anyway).

S would further split, so to speak, into Si and Se, with Si being Introverted Sensing. If he's ESTj then he'll be Te-leading (dominant function) with Si-creative. Does the ESTj description on this site come close-ish? Don't worry too much about descriptions though, sometimes they miss what *you*'re seeing in the other person. cheers

PS: also, why did you think ENTj for him? Is that based on descriptions only? Or were you able to "identify" Ni as creative for him?

Willow 16/06/2010 07:47 PM

The ESTj description on the site does sound sort of like him. The ENTj description doesn't. Nor did the INTj description.

I think what is confusing me is that he seems so intuitive. His degree is in History and it's just amazing to me how he is able to see current events and how they parallel other events in history. He has said before that what he likes about studying history is not the just the subject of history itself but how it helps him understand the world as a whole. Although he is a real stickler for detail ( watching the history channel is quite an experience. He's always pointing out every little fact the experts are getting wrong) he really is a "big picture" kind of person. He is able to draw connections from all over the place and he is an encyclopedia of information. He can predict trends in politics and culture and can also usually predict how a movie will end just a few minutes into it. Often when he is insightful about something, he doesn't know why he has jumped to that conclusion other than his gut. But when he thinks through it, his conclusion is completely logical.... This all seems very intuitive to me.

felafel 16/06/2010 08:12 PM

^ OK, maybe you should read up a little more on Ni and Si, and just on functions in general, and see what fits and what doesn't...

PS: movies do kinda run on formulas :)
PS2: thought this might be sth to look into (Dichotomies): http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...le=Dichotomies

EDIT: I find Positivist vs. Negativist *kinda* easy to pick up. ESTj is negativist, ENTj is positivist.
Positivists

  1. More inclined to optimize already functional systems of things and processes.
  2. "This glass is half-full", "We have already collected $438,000 for that project"
  3. Usually more complimenting than reprimanding.
  4. Socially and intellectually more trusting.
  5. Explains what things are (irrationals) or should be (rationals).
Negativists

  1. More inclined to solve problems in systems of things and processes.
  2. "This glass is half-empty", "We need $62,000 for that project"
  3. Usually more reprimanding than complimenting.
  4. Socially and intellectually more mistrusting.
  5. Explains what things are not (irrationals) or should not be (rationals).

EDIT2: forgot to mention it may not be a bad idea to read up on temperaments (EJ, EP, IJ, IP) in addition to above, in case you haven't done so already. cheers

Cyclops 16/06/2010 08:14 PM

fwiw my experience of ENTjs are that they are so often ahead of themselves, ie a 'deal' is worth millions of pounds when nothing has happened yet, or in their heads they're already in work so when on the train they don't realise they have to press the open button in order for the doors to open to get there first.

Your guy sounds much more in the moment imo fwiw, so prolly ESTj over ENTj.

Something else I've noticed is that ESTjs are more interested in family, household matters, relaxing more. ENTjs don't seem as into that and don't seem to know what to do, seem to just work more without being able to relax at all.

These are just my observations though, maybe help to put some structure to the dichotomies and functions too - which think you should read too fwiw if you get the chance. Felafel is doing such a good job here, we're all so nice :D

felafel 16/06/2010 08:39 PM

^ I figured Ij-s will be able to sort through the info for themselves :)

Willow 16/06/2010 08:52 PM

He's definately negativist. But when I look at Si as a creative function it doesn't seem to fit. Ne as a second function seems to fit though. Maybe he's INTj after all.. except he's more practical than that and too gregarious too...

I think I may be overanalizing at this point. And I'm analizing while at the same time taking in a lot of new information. I think it's confusing me. I can't even remember exactly what lead me to think he might be INTp in the first place. Lol! You are being very helpful though, so thank you very much.:) I'll revisit this as soon as I get more time to myself again.

felafel 16/06/2010 09:38 PM

^ @ this point, it might be helpful to write some more about yourself and your husband. things you do, things you like, things that motivate you, the way you interact with the world & people around you & co. if and when you have the time. cheers

Willow 16/06/2010 09:58 PM

Well, as Ive said I don't actually have much time for this but I can't stop thinking about it. I must solve this puzzle! I came across something interesting in a Myers-Briggs description of ESTJs. I know the types don't always directly correspond but I just have to figure out why he seems so intuitive. I know him well and I'm not imagining it, I know.


"Extraverted iNtuition
As the ESTJ matures, and as situations arise which call for suspension of criticism, Extraverted iNtuition is allowed to play. Under the leadership of the Te function, iNtuition gravitates toward the discovery of broad categories which at worst amount to stereotypes. Those ESTJs who hone their Ne abilities may find success in academia. (I've encountered ESTJs whose Ne overshadows the auxiliary Si function--for whatever reason--to the extent that there is an appearance of NT radical geekism.)"

I wonder if this explains his "NT geekism" and intuition? His father is a professor and always tried to groom him for an academic career. Could all his academic pursuits have helped him hone his Ne? In all my intellectual discussions with him, his Ne , or what seems to be Ne, really comes out. Could this be why I'm perceiving this as his creative function?

felafel 16/06/2010 10:58 PM

^ Hey,
Can you explain what, exactly, do you see as Ne in him? Is it the ability you're describing of seeing how things will play out? I'm not sure that's Ne, strictly speaking, but i don't know how it shows off on a day-to-day basis for him. Ne can, at times, come across as gentle (and sometimes not so gentle ) probing, of sorts. Can be directed at people, phenomena et al. ESTj can, and do, of course, use Ne, it's sth they generally appreciate.

Also, yes, it's possible, when people "groom" you to become sth or other, some "stuff" will be retained:). later

Willow 17/06/2010 12:02 AM

It's mostly the way he is very good at understanding abstract concepts finds patterns and connections in things that most people wouldn't notice. For example I could be talking about an art movement like Impressionism or Cubism and he will dicuss how those artistic theories reflect the political climate of the time or how it reminds him of a philosophy or particular literary movement. Or in a more playful state of mind relate what I'm saying to a TV show or something in pop culture. My experience of Ne is that I see how interconnected everything is. This seems kind of similar to what he's doing here to me. It would seem to me that from the descriptions I've read of ESTJs make them seem much more compartmentalized in their thinking. Or am I misunderstanding the descrption of them...or of Ne for that matter?


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