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Question #1156540312Friday, 25-Aug-2006
Category: ESFj INTj Duality Subtypes
Some say that subtypes are involved in the creation of a "more perfect duality". The question is, which subtypes would complement each other best? Would two base function subtypes (for example, ethical subtype ESFJ and logical subtype INTJ) create a better duality, or a combination of base and creative function subtypes (sensory ESFJ and logical INTJ)? I can't wait to hear your response because I keep getting mixed answers on this topic. Thanks . -- uninspired
Your Answers: 1+
A1 Before bothering with subtypes, I still have yet to see any theoretical, experiential or observational evidence in others that dual premise is not actually the worst, most psychologically intense, and moth-to-the-flame type of combo possible. -- unbelieving
A2 Dual relations between ESFjs and INTjs are said to occur primarily because both are attracted to novelty. (Both belong to the Alpha quadra.) In the INTj novelty seeking is due to . Whereas in the ESFj it is due to . This seems to contradict the hypothesis that IN(T)j and ES(F)j make the best pairing. -- metroGnome, the ostensible INTj
A3 The rational functions/sub-functions of ESFj and INTj are Ti and Fe while the irrational ones are Si and Ne. I think they connect because they employ exactly the same ingredients albeit in different concentrations. Although a particular function is more dominant in one than the other, the perception of how the other should use a function appears identical to one’s own so is therefore is perceived as safe. I would propose that the better matches occur when the pair’s individual weightings for each of the four functions are summed and total 100%; for example, if a one scores 80% Ti, the partner should score 20% to be ideal. My rationale for this is that as a function becomes more dominant in an individual, that person will tolerate its use by his or her partner less and less, and as a function becomes weaker in an individual, that person will expect its use by his or her partner more and more. -- I/O
A4 @A3: however, life challenges us & asks us to constantly adapt. If two people's functions add to 100% in such a way that the weak partner becomes dependent on the dominant partner, that person will be at a disadvantage when (not if) their circumstances next dictate that they utilize that function. -- iAnnAu
A5 Most "classical" socionists know about subtype theories, and agree that subtypes don't exist. -- machintruc
Moderator's comment
You seem to know a lot about classic socionics and classic socionists by the looks of it, so why don't you name those you know and tell us which of them agree that subtypes don't exist?
A6 @A5, I too would be interested in the workings produced by various classical socionists in regards to these sub types. I do not see on the face of things why they simply cannot exist, but also I for one to not have enough informations to make a judgement with clarity in this regards. Do you have more knowledge than I, or perhaps it even less which results in your bold statement? -- Cyclops
A7 ESFjs and INTjs would make horrible couples for what should be incredibly obvious reasons. -- Anonymous
Moderator's comment
And the obvious reasons are...?
A8 @A7 - As an INTj, I too would like to know what these "incredibly obvious reasons" are... -- Krig (INTj)
A9 My type is an I(n)Tj and I find there is almost zero pyschological distance when interacting with a E(s)Fj, whereas there is slightly some with a ES(f)j, but defenitely not a replusion. Its kinda neat, I dress very plainly whereas E(s)Fj dress exotically or elegantly. The psychological attraction is I look different because I'm underdressed, whereas the E(s)Fj looks different because their overdressed. The subconscious signal that I'm sending to an E(s)Fj is I don't overspend on how I appear, likewise I'm not vain or egotistical (introverted intuitive types can be unbashful about being egotistical and even greedy). The subconscious signal an E(s)Fj sends me is that their highly sensual. -- Anonymous
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A10 I think they're overrated personally. There doesn't appear to be a clear consensus on how they apply. I think that it is situational, for instance if you do an occupation or an activity which calls into play your 2nd function, then it stands you will use it more. I've also heard some people to be 'balanced' on the sub-type scale, quite how they measure that I don't know -- Bob
A11 subtypes are clearly visible. There just one thing to keep in mind, you only start seeing them when you know enough persons of one specific type. You'll start seeing similarities and differences between people of the same type. -- jarno
A12 I think the variant you listed first more probable - that is, when the partners both rely on their base functions or on their creative functions they get on best. At least, that is my observation. The couples I know that have least problems in communication are three Ne subtype ENFps with their Si subtype ISTp partners; two Fi subtype ESFps and Te subtype INTps and one Fi subtype ISFj and Te subtype ENTj. That supports the variant you list first - that is, when the partners both rely on their base functions or on their creative functions they get on best. -- ESFp
A13 There is truth to this. Intuitive will not only get along but understand on a deeper level with other Intuitive or Sensing. While the Ethical will probably get along more so with other Ethical or Logical. For those that think this is dumb, clearly you have little knowledge of how subtypes work or the differences between each type. Please do some research online to see examples of subtypes between types. -- INFP
A14 to A1 lets not forget about mistyping, there is an article about the differences between INTj and INTp posted by one of the administrators, it says that many INTj are probably INTp which obviously changes maters of relation dramatically. in my own experience i have know indicators to mistype, some times a little and sometimes considerably, it has types my sister as ESFp when she is actually ISFj this is not a far stretch being mirrors but in another case my other sister was typed by different indicators as ENFp where she turned out to be ESFj under more careful observation, that is a bit more of a crucial error, where the only thing in common in the theoretical sense is the mobilizing function or hidden agenda for the ESFj(Ne) is also the ENFp's dominant function that would be comparable to an INTj being typed as ISTp, big difference although there are some similarities as in the case of ENFp ans ESFj. this sort of thing is probably at the heart of all the skepticism of inter-type relations. -- LII
A15 @A1 and A5: I don't understand INTj-ESFj pairing is so counter-intuitive. If INTj-ESFj pairing shouldn't work, than neither should any of the duality pairs since they all work on the same principles. I'm an INTj and I dated an ENFj for a year and a half. Of course it wasn't pure bliss, but I would say that our relationship closely matched the socionics description of duality. The beginning of our relationship was very stressful for both of us. We are both very opinionated and at first that led to some really serious arguments. Over time we figured eachother out and the relationship went a lot more smoothly. However, in article "ESFj uncovered" it states "the ESFj needs to continually dump their woes and frustrations on his or her partner like a purging or cathartic act." I would not only agree with this statement but also believe this to be the reason of our breakup. The more stressed out my ESFj got from her overwhelming commitments, the more she would dump her stress onto me and our relationship. Now that we have been apart for about 6 months we are realizing how important we truly were to eachother. She was not only able to do everything I wasn't good at, but those were the types of things that she excelled at and ENJOYED! And vice-versa. I could describe more of my experience but it would only support whats already been stated in the duality description. We were VERY different people, but I have never had a closer bond with anybody. Also, in my experience, the ease of communication in a duality relationship is surpassed only by that of an identity relationship. -- travis (INTj)
A16 I'm convinced subtypes are real and I base this on personal experience as I have had dual relations with both subtypes: ES(F)J and E(S)FJ. What I learned is you can fall in love with them both and you can both lose them too so when the duality descriptions mentions not to idealise these relations - they mean it! In hindsight inexperience can lead to prejudice such as thinking one subtype is better than another but once you've had duality with both types all you'll find is love and loss in different ways. What I can tell about the nature of the relationship is the ethical subtype relates to their partner psychologically and physically and can be characterized as mind and body. The sensory subtype relates to their partner intimately and spiritually and is characterized as heart and soul. Its as if the ethical subtype wants to be given your mind and body as a way of earning trust and the sensory subtype wants to be given your heart and soul. The ethical subtype wants to believe your their true love and the sensory subtype is your soul mate. -- Anonymous
A17 I agree, dualizing can be very frustrating at first. It's important that both partners do some introspecting to find any mental/emotional blocks they may have erected that they are unaware of. Going into my dual relationship (I am an INFj, he is ESTj) I thought at several points, "Wow, this sounded much better on paper." We had such huge misunderstandings and it definitely didn't feel effortless and natural to interact with him. Then I realized that I had a very unhealthy mindset in my approach to our relationship - what's called anxious-preoccupied attachment. I would constantly worry that my partner didn't value me as much as I did him. I wanted more displays of emotion and affection and I was smothering, needy, insecure, and possessive. Our relationship was a roller coaster. BUT I knew I loved him more than anything in the world and I really wanted to make it work. Thank goodness he didn't give up on me before I could begin to work on myself! Now, I am confidant about the way he feels and I have removed my blindfold. He cares so much about me, but in a different form than my caring. Now, I definitely see the advantages of being in a dual relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way. I believe that I could not have discovered my deeply-seated insecurity with any other type. -- An INFj
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