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  #1  
Old 25/12/2005, 08:43 PM
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Default J/P = problem

This topic relates to the article found at http://socionics.com/advan/jpproblem.htm
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  #2  
Old 05/03/2006, 03:28 PM
Luke Luke is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

This article is a good explanation. Another way to put it is that there are 8 total functions, 4 of which you use most easily in your conscious life, and two of which are really major to you:
Te Ti Fe Fi Se Si Ne Ni

Xe and Xi are functions that may seem similar, but function quite differently. That is why you will think of your quasi-identical as saying things the wrong way all the time -- your introverted thoughts are their extraverted thoughts, and vice versa.

Thus if you think facts should be stated openly many times, and can do so easily, INTj is not you. If you can share your intuitions openly and easily, INTp is not you.
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Old 11/09/2006, 11:09 PM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Hey SG,

When you first posted the J/P article a few years back, I was mostly thinking ... "ok, ok, what's the big deal? lots of people test evenly between a variable axis (direct or inferred)" ... UNTIL --

I've written here before complaining about duality being horrid (tho` can be hard, yes), and then wavering between types for myself (over a few years). I've also run into inconsistencies with my VI which signalled: problem. Years ago, with MBTI I tested INFP. Then over time, in developing my T axis a great deal, I crossed into testing as a subtle INTP. Last weekend I suddenly considered (for the first time in 7 years): what if my J/P is incorrect? What if my type really is the COOL type I admire so much (and envied!), but didn't believe I was? (Kinda weird sounding, I know ... to envy your type?)

My theoretical observations since then have brought all the intertype relations and profiles into focus for me in a way previously unknown. I really have to wonder more than ever now, how many people (esp. introverts) are mistyped out there and muddying the profile definitions?? It's easy to read a profile and say - yeah, generally - I can relate to pretty much most of that. Of course, there are similarities between types anyway ... (incidentally, for some reason I just never READ the +/- profile for INFJ on this site until the other day ... at last, a profile that's spot-on!)

I also wonder that if I truly am an INFj (not INXp), if the frequent sense of alienation that both INTjs and INFjs experience only contributes to trouble with self-identification, maybe more than for any other type (which also would explain why so many pursue personality theories in their quest). E.g., I get on very well with INTJs usually (interesting, fun, energizing, and unique) ... have struggled harder to get to know (other) INFJs (SO much in their own world, it seemed to me, and retreat so often ... I also felt them to be a bit superior (in actuality, not attitude)). So if you're already out-of-sync with most of the culture around you, and you can't even hook up with your own type 'cause of its reclusive and "unique" nature ... no wonder there're issues!

Anyway, this would all explain why I've bashed duality so much -- esp. when I now consider they are the worst for me even under optimal phys attraction (horrid anima-animus). So duality may be (in and of itself) healthy after all ... the scary thing is, flip that J/P in a test result, and your worst nightmare is now perceived and possibly even pursued as your dual (in addition to the instinctually compelling attraction that can rip you apart and bring out your worst).

Oh, and another thing - when you think about the extreme possibilities orientation and holistic thinking of INTjs and INFjs, their outward behavior (in naturally striving toward extreme idealism/holistic optimization) might naturally look P and they may test P as a result.

Oh, those incidental J/P variables should just be tossed! Their popular definitions seem too superficial.

Consider also how routine-oriented, time-conscientious and stereotypically "left-brained" INTPs appear to be ... (J) ... it's that active, introverted intuition that's so good at planning which is taking the lead - and theoretically competing with J's pop definition and appears at odds with the label of P.

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Old 12/09/2006, 06:51 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

In my opinion the thing that creates the so called problem is Socionics adopted Myers-Briggs notation, while simultaneously attempting to correct Myers-Briggs nomenclature resulting in a hopeless muddle.

Myers-Briggs got it right concerning extraverts only. Concerning introverts there is no way to tell if MB got anything right. The behavior of INTPs is like INTj behavior (in most cases). INTJ behavior can be either INTj or INTp like as well. This is because it is often difficult to distinguish intuition from thinking and it is likewise difficult to distinguish introverted thinking from extraverted thinking. ISTJs and ISTjs resemble one another as do ISTPs and ISTps despite the fact that according to Myers-Briggs an ISTJ is functionally the same as an ISTp and an ISTP is functionally the same as an ISTj. Introverted feeling types suffer similar confusion when trying to correlate the two systems.

The best solution from my point of view is to decouple Socionics and MBTI and let each stand on its own merits.
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Old 12/09/2006, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Quote:

Well, what can I say...can you PM me your pic?
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Old 12/09/2006, 08:37 PM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Sorry SG,

I don't have one to send (I'm a bit behind the digital times at the moment) ... altho`, if it helps, I have had more people tell me I look like Jessica Lange than any other celebrity. The weird thing to me is, is I DON'T think so (not that I've really seen many of her movies anyway) ... my features and coloring are different IMO. So maybe it's related to her demeanor/ambience in a way I can't see (since I do not normally view myself from outside myself)...



So what's her type? Maybe it's the same?

I also had a longtime friend say I resembled Audrey Hepburn ... another after quite some time said I reminded her of Shelly Long. (These guys are kinda all over the map ... in terms of physical features ... eh?) I do have the almond eyes and "tight" long neck, though. Heh! And a sort of tiny/waif bone structure though not short. Recently, a few strangers have suggested Natalie Portman. (Oh, this is stupid... I'm not trying to say I'm some raving beauty or something 'cause I'm not ... these are just the parallels that have come up ...)

Regardless, for whatever reason, I must give off an ambience such that I've had people flock to me over the years (including people who hardly knew me at first) and just unload their personal problems and ask for insight - even those much older than me - even counselors/mentors for ME.

Hmm.
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Old 12/09/2006, 08:40 PM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Hi metroGnome,

Good info. I tend to pick in choose from both systems per what seems to work. It seems socionics has been a closer approximation thus far ... what merits would you assign to MBTI, in particular? I see it as great system - for its time - but it's outdated now. Socionics is taking things forward ... but still needs work because it needs to shed irrelevant baggage picked up by MBTI.

What has socionics done differently in its testing practices to accomodate the introverted J/P flip? I see a need for this, though others may disagree.
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Old 12/09/2006, 10:06 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Quote:
...what merits would you assign to MBTI, in particular?
MBTI is a fairly decent indicator of vocational aptitude. It identifies the general attitudes of various types pretty well, but as I said earlier it might not have ascribed those attitudes to the correct psychological functions at least as they pertain to introverts. Socionics describes social dynamics between the types, something that MBTI doesn't necessarily try to do. Owing to the popularity of the MBTI, I think it behooves a person to become typologically bilingual.
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Old 12/09/2006, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

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I have had more people tell me I look like Jessica Lange than any other celebrity.
Yeah, she looks INFjish to me, but still, 1 picture is worth 1000 words
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Old 12/09/2006, 10:46 PM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Sorry, Sergei - no pic have I! Thank you for the V.I. offer, tho`!
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  #11  
Old 12/09/2006, 11:07 PM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

metroGnome & SG & whomever else is an INTj and would like to respond ... may I probe your "j" a bit?

Would you say you're very curious and also fond of spontaneity (e.g., NEED exciting new little adventures on the weekends, esp. which stimulate your mind and senses)?

Do you often fantasize complete breaks from your current living environment and obligations for something radically different (e.g., move off to such&such island)? (Oops, that's not a j issue ... that's hitting on one possible antagonistic manifestation among many of the HA ... sorry!)

INTjs I've known so far would agree and say yes on these items in a way much more than most other types would identify with. The first one seems like P behavior to me per the superficial pop defn, and might incline INTjs to think they're Ps.

Also, on a different note, would you say that you have a good innate sense of the passage of time? Now, on this last one, I have no idea what response to expect.
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Old 13/09/2006, 03:31 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Quote:
metroGnome & SG & whomever else is an INTj and would like to respond ... may I probe your "j" a bit?
Be my guest.

Quote:
Would you say you're very curious and also fond of spontaneity (e.g., NEED exciting new little adventures on the weekends, esp. which stimulate your mind and senses)?
Yes.

Quote:
Do you often fantasize complete breaks from your current living environment and obligations for something radically different (e.g., move off to such&such island)? (Oops, that's not a j issue ... that's hitting on one possible antagonistic manifestation among many of the HA ... sorry!)
More than is helpful I'm afraid.

Quote:
INTjs I've known so far would agree and say yes on these items in a way much more than most other types would identify with. The first one seems like P behavior to me per the superficial pop defn, and might incline INTjs to think they're Ps.
Once again, "j" and "P" are not mutually exclusive. In Socionics j means one's preferred rational function, thinking or feeling, is predominant. P, a la Myers-Briggs, means that one's preferred irrational function, sensation or intuition, is extraverted.

To the extent that an INTj is defined as an introverted thinker with extraverted intuition, and an INTP is defined as having dominant introverted thinking with auxillary extraverted intuition. INTj and INTP are one in the same type.
(Even though they are theoretically the same, there is not the one-to-one correspondence that you might expect. Case in point, on Myers-Briggs tests I typically show up as INTJ, which in a perfect world would be a Socionics INTp. However, in taking the Socionics Type Assistant (TM) j is the most consistent feature of my type. (I have never shown up as p)).

Quote:
Also, on a different note, would you say that you have a good innate sense of the passage of time? Now, on this last one, I have no idea what response to expect.
I tend to be anal about punctuality. If I have an appointment, I like to arrive just a tad early, 5 to 10 minutes. On the other hand, if engrossed in a project I am oblivious to the passage of time.
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Old 13/09/2006, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Quote:
Would you say you're very curious and also fond of spontaneity (e.g., NEED exciting new little adventures on the weekends, esp. which stimulate your mind and senses)?
I usually know what I am going to do on the weekend by Friday.

Quote:
Do you often fantasize complete breaks from your current living environment and obligations for something radically different (e.g., move off to such&such island)? (Oops, that's not a j issue ... that's hitting on one possible antagonistic manifestation among many of the HA ... sorry!)
Not really, unless the current living environment is unbearable, in which case I would change it instead of fantasising about the change.

Quote:

Also, on a different note, would you say that you have a good innate sense of the passage of time? Now, on this last one, I have no idea what response to expect.
I have good sense of time but it is a mystery to me how it works. When I need to be somewhere at certain time I subconsciously know when I have to leave to be there on time. I know when I am going to be late or early. If I am not bothered about being punctual I often arrive dead on time, if it is important, I can't help it but arrive early. I do not calculate how long I need for this or for that, I just sense the moment when it it time to start.
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Old 13/09/2006, 05:59 PM
booyakasha booyakasha is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Here is the other side if you want it (my type is ENTp). Although it would probably might not help -- what you really need it seems is a true INTp (or several of them) to answer these questions.

Quote:
Would you say you're very curious and also fond of spontaneity (e.g., NEED exciting new little adventures on the weekends, esp. which stimulate your mind and senses)?
Yes, extremely. Usually I have no idea what I am going to do on the weekend until 30 minutes to 1 hr of doing it. The strict class schedule of medical/graduate school makes me really want to do this.

Quote:
Do you often fantasize complete breaks from your current living environment and obligations for something radically different (e.g., move off to such&such island)? (Oops, that's not a j issue ... that's hitting on one possible antagonistic manifestation among many of the HA ... sorry!)
Yes, very often. I have a lot of trouble with this, actually. I don't usually do it, though (well, I did a few months ago by deciding to move to a fairly far away city that is very different and to study something completely different as well...)

Quote:
Also, on a different note, would you say that you have a good innate sense of the passage of time? Now, on this last one, I have no idea what response to expect.
I do have a good sense of time. Sometimes I ignore it, but mostly I am on time or slightly late to formal events that I have to go to. Informal events, though, are different. I usually just do things when I wish to do them.

I would like to add that many of these tendencies can be "learned" traits, as with any behavioral patterns. I would expect responses to be quite heterogeneous with respect to J and P groups, and even among people of a particular type.

FYI, the information that really convinced me of my type was the hidden agenda and the "ENTp uncovered"... especially the latter... wow I have never heard a better general description of my negative tendencies (or more scathing)... except for those offered by my significant other, haha.

Btw, SG, do you have any more uncovered profiles up your sleeve?
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Old 13/09/2006, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

As inspired by booyakasha's suggestion, one INTp's responses:

Quote:
Would you say you're very curious and also fond of spontaneity (e.g., NEED exciting new little adventures on the weekends, esp. which stimulate your mind and senses)?
Intellectually curious, yes. But then again I suppose that one's a given. I don't really know how to answer the spontaneity one though, on one hand I prefer familiar routines (ones that I've set myself, not socially standard routines) although that may just be the case because it's the most efficient routine I'm aware of for doing whatever it is. Things such as meal times and whatnot, I do completely spontaneously since I eat when I'm hungry, rather than eating at a preset time. So it's hard for me to answer that, although self-analysis isn't my strong point (since I'm better at analysing external things).

Quote:
Do you often fantasize complete breaks from your current living environment and obligations for something radically different (e.g., move off to such&such island)? (Oops, that's not a j issue ... that's hitting on one possible antagonistic manifestation among many of the HA ... sorry!)
Hmm.. well, I sometimes fantasise about being in an alternate reality, not unlike the type of fantasy world commonly found in computer roleplaying games. I don't fantasise about being elsewhere in reality though, if that makes any sense.

Quote:
Also, on a different note, would you say that you have a good innate sense of the passage of time? Now, on this last one, I have no idea what response to expect.
Hmm.. I don't really know. I rely constantly on clocks or my wristwatch to know of the time, which I check often since I'm paranoid about time. On the other hand, if my mind is distracted away from time for whatever reason, I always seem to think to check my watch at a crucial moment, a few minutes or so before I have to do something at that time. So one could argue that intuition of time manifests itself there when given the chance.
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Old 14/09/2006, 12:41 AM
DeadRinga DeadRinga is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Quote:
I have good sense of time but it is a mystery to me how it works. When I need to be somewhere at certain time I subconsciously know when I have to leave to be there on time. I know when I am going to be late or early. If I am not bothered about being punctual I often arrive dead on time, if it is important, I can't help it but arrive early. I do not calculate how long I need for this or for that, I just sense the moment when it it time to start.
This i relate with very, very much.
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  #17  
Old 15/09/2006, 12:43 AM
theEvaluator theEvaluator is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Unbelievable! INTP? BLauritson, your entire response sounds so very ISTJ! (Not to mention, the current ISTJ profiles out there really do not reveal how interesting and very talented the type really can be.)

ENTp response - sounds just like an ENTp I've known. Not surprising! (and good affirmation).

metroGnome and SG, maybe your types are different after all.

I wonder how much "subtype" - if it really exists - may even be skewing the J/P controversy.

Gotta run ...
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Old 15/09/2006, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

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metroGnome and SG, maybe your types are different after all.
That is I who probably is not an INTj
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Old 15/09/2006, 10:52 AM
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Unbelievable! INTP? BLauritson, your entire response sounds so very ISTJ! (Not to mention, the current ISTJ profiles out there really do not reveal how interesting and very talented the type really can be.)
Hmm.. I've had a read of a few different ISTJ profiles, but I disagree with the S part. I can see a lot of similarities between INTJ and ISTJ (going by MBTI here for simplicity's sake), but I have a dislike for excessive detail and my thoughts are very abstract (although I may appear to communicate in a more concrete manner at times, this is something I've learned to do since I've had to communicate with a lot of S types in the past). Also I think that, although the descriptions in some ways are quite similar between INTJ and ISTJ, I think the INTJ profiles fit me more. And the socionics INTp profile fits me practically to a T.

Who knows, I was raised by an ISFJ mother which may have had an effect on things.

'twas certainly interesting investigating that though, it's something I'll be thinking about for a while to see if I can glean any more information from it.

EDIT: Come to think of it actually, the intertype relations supports my belief also. If I am an INTp, then my dual is ESFp. One of my coworkers is an ESFp, and although there's no romantic attraction between us, from what I've read on this and on other socionics sites, the dual relationship definitely fits.
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Old 15/09/2006, 12:02 PM
metroGnome metroGnome is offline
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Default Re: J/P = problem

Quote:
Quote:
metroGnome and SG, maybe your types are different after all.
That is I who probably is not an INTj
You think so? I was going to respond to this remark that it would be ironic if you had mistyped yourself being as you are the guru of V.I. and all.

I have thought that I truly could be ISTj but that I tend to over emphasize my Ti giving me the affect of an INTj. I don't see myself as having the HA of an INTj at all. The HA of an ISTj seems much more plausible to me.
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