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  #41  
Old 21/09/2006, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: J/P = problem

I'll have to do some more thinking on the whole T/F thing, like I implied previously I wasn't really satisfied with what I'd put there. I knew there was more I could put regarding it but I just couldn't seem to find what it was exactly within me. It'll surface eventually, but I think I'll have to put that on hold for now.

I looked back on the test I did, and looking at the four questions I tested as S for, I know I was quite unsure about the two possible answers for each one. Which I suppose doesn't help my case whatsoever. Hmm.. I don't know.. I don't think (for me anyway) it's really so much a case of being unsure whether I'm a T/F or an N/S, since I'm pretty sure of my status for both of those, but I think it's more a case of finding it difficult to keep my thoughts and feelings balanced within me, since the two often seem to be battling it out. I know that I personally prefer to use logic in dealing with things, but quite often my emotional mind tries to take over. Usually I can keep it under control, but on the odd occasion it takes control of me instead and rains hellfire down upon me (metaphorically speaking, obviously. I doubt I'd be here typing this now if I were burned to death by hellfire). Like I mentioned somewhere previously, this happened just last Tuesday when for no reason whatsoever I was very angry all day and had very little self-control whatsoever. Later on in the day I started directing the anger towards myself (when nobody was around that is) to at least minimise the damage done to others whenever I got an impulse to attack or destroy something. Basically the main thing that makes me question the extent of my F-ness is I seem to be prone to occasional mood swings. When I have one (they're completely spontaneous and never last longer than a day) I have very little control over myself whatsoever. If the mood swing ends during the day (it always seems to last for either half a day or all day, and always starts in the morning), then I usually get depressed after that and hate myself for letting me lose control like that. And that's the thing that confuses me - if I'm a T, why can't I control myself? I should be more disciplined than that, but I just succumb too easily to my emotions which annoys me.

Perhaps the above is what I wanted to get out in my previous post. I dunno, that was yesterday, I can't remember that far back.

I suppose that'll have to do for now, if I think of any more examples that I consider relevant then (provided I can remember them for that long before something else distracts me.. I'm very easily distracted by my thoughts) I'll add them.

Just out of curiosity though, and this may help my understanding of it all. Basically, what are the likely behavioral/mental differences between people who can't decide between T/F and people who can't decide between S/N? Perhaps there's something I'm missing regarding that. I know there's the thing about hidden agendas, but I haven't studied Socionics long enough to incorporate those into my understanding of how typology manifests itself in personality.

Who knows. I'm still not entirely convinced that I'm not an INTp, but I'm not completely closed-minded, so if I am given enough evidence then I'll reconsider my stance on it all. We'll see. I quite like this debate actually, it's been a while since I've had a serious debate with anyone (about the only person who ever is in the mood for a debate is an ENFJ I work with, and her morally superior attitude pisses me right off, so I avoid that sort of conversation with her).
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Old 21/09/2006, 08:33 PM
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About mood swings. I had them years ago and they were really affecting my lifestyle. Mood swings most probably come from some underlying emotional trauma needed to be resolved. Anyway, don't remember why and how, but I attended Grof's Holotropic Breathwork workshop in Yorkshire several times and it worked, the mood swings had gone. I mean that's what Grof's Holotropic Breathwork is good for anyway.
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  #43  
Old 21/09/2006, 09:36 PM
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Hmm.. I'll have to look into that.

By the way, one thing I'm thinking of doing is basically an expanded version of what I did above where I analysed the ISTj, INTp and INFj profiles, but expanding it to all 16 profiles. If I do decide to go ahead with it, I'll probably note it all in a text document and link to it off-site so that I don't end up bloating this thread even more :P. But yeah, considering analysing 3 of them took me 1½ hours, I don't think analysing the other 13 is something I'll do any time soon, but I might have a go at it at some point. See how I feel when I've got some more spare time I suppose.
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  #44  
Old 21/09/2006, 11:31 PM
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Your posts appear to easily demonstrate having the most innate energy for: extensively relating information to your past experiences (Si); willingly taking on even extensive, tedious tasks (Se), even without guarantee of an obvious payoff (Te); all in order to grow in your awareness (Ne) of your own emotional and decision-making nature (Fi + Ti) - and perhaps, to a lesser extent, achieve a sense of identity/stability/belonging (which would relate to Si, with unresolved family issues precipitating the need rather than emerging from issues necessarily innate to your psyche).

In other words, heavy Si-Se axis energy with a strong desire to achieve more Ne into your Fi, Ti, etc.

What do others here see re: expressed functions and their energy patterns?

Anyway.

Although profile comparisons MIGHT help you gain more self-understanding, you may want to consider supplementing your quest by looking a little at functional analysis from a theoretical point of view. Just an idea, in case you want to consider additional approaches.

I agree with Sergei in that the cycling moods sounds symptomatic of your unresolved emotional issues. Anyone can struggle with this, depending on life circumstances. This may sound off the wall and may be entirely wrong, but you may want to take up geneaology as a hobby, for a time? You may find it strangely gratifying and somewhat healing to do so. (Although, I might be wrong ... what do you think?)

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  #45  
Old 22/09/2006, 02:44 PM
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By functional analysis, do you mean the theoretical implications of different functions such as Te, Fi, etc.? If so, where would I be able to get some information regarding them?

I suppose I'd be better off doing the functional analysis thing actually, since doing so would also further my understanding of Socionics as a whole (that is to say, it would help me understand the fundamental forces that make types the way they are, rather than just looking at the types without knowing why they're like that). One thing I thought of is do you think I could have learned to use certain functions that I wouldn't normally use, for the sake of adapting to circumstances? Maybe if I learn the function roles I'll be able to explore that possibility better.
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Old 23/09/2006, 12:59 AM
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One thing I thought of is do you think I could have learned to use certain functions that I wouldn't normally use, for the sake of adapting to circumstances?
Yes! We all do this. And actually, whether stress brought it on, or even just general life development, it's best that we ALL grow in this way.

The human mind is a holistic, complex organism. Everyone uses all the functions! We all need them to engage the world. Keep in mind that functions are classifications for different kinds of information people need in order to apprehend and interact with the world around them. Epistemology. Information metabolism.

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By functional analysis, do you mean the theoretical implications of different functions such as Te, Fi, etc.? If so, where would I be able to get some information regarding them?
Considering you use all functions, try classifying them and see how they interact with each other - i.e., in your own experience of them - what seems to invite a response from what - and how they play out into interactions with others around you, and their orientations.

The more I discover, the clearer it is how timeless principles about how people should treat one another truly bear profound value. Often petty conflicts arise because, e.g., person A has an expectation that person B (and everyone else!) behave like X, because this is so natural to how person A is wired, they take that behavior for granted in themselves, even that ability, and then may choose to project it onto others as a standard. (FYI - I am NOT a relativist.) When person B reacts by instinctively expressing a desire (need?) for requirements C before they can proceed/carry out the request, because that's how *they* do things, person A may choose to get angry and decides person B is being ridiculous, difficult, dumb, evil, rude, immature, you name it. This doesn't happen 100% of the time - for there are people who demonstrate patience and understanding (regardless of their type!) But this sort of thing DOES happen ALL the time in the course of "petty conflicts" - when two conflicting selves are getting in the way. Of course, petty conflicts should not be confused with legitimately immoral behavior, and some people genuinely ARE acting immature, rude, senseless, irresponsibly, etc. In the absence of allowing for the fact that not everyone is wired just like ourselves, and suspending our judgment and being a little more careful in our demands of others, gracious toward their weaknesses and acknowledging they have strengths we ourselves may even be blind to, then true communication can emerge, needs are met, and people benefit from one another. I must say, I've learned a lot from petty conflicts about myself, others, and typology!

Now, let's look at a slightly more specific example of type dynamics and interaction (although, this is still kinda general).

You're having a conversation with your boss, reviewing some recent work. He is not happy with any of it. You're completely flabberghasted. Why doesn't he ever validate your work? He seems in invent problems out of the air, and completely disregard everything you ever put together.

If you analyze the conversation exchanged, the very words spoken reflect varying "functions" and how they're interacting, in terms of topic matter.

It could very well be that you're demonstrating great technical expertise, showing an adeptness with factual data, details, scheduling and efficiency that is quite ingenious and will greatly meet a real need of the company. Meanwhile, your boss upset about how you handled the situation from a social perspective - e.g., maybe you did not get approval from So & So first before proceeding with item Y, or informing others on the project, or whatever. (Your temporary demonstration of nice S/T/N integration, versus his Fe demands). He may very well value your S/T/N work - BUT, might feel that his Fe expectations - so naturally easy for him, and perhaps his deepest priority - were not met first, in the order they "should have been." Meet halfway, and often everyone grows - and optimal results are achieved along multiple dimensions.

So think of functional analysis as a dynamic, mechanistic approach. Consider how each function interrelates to the others in your own psyche in an analytical way, on a case-by-case basis - and see what themes emerge. Then compare/contrast your results with what you might see in others, e.g., in the course of your conversation - what kinds of ideas and priorities are conveyed, levels of awareness, etc. E.g., "When someone shares a Te subject with me, do I react with Fi? Ne? Which function do I enjoy pursuing when stressed, and what is the nature of the stress? How can that be translated into function(s), i.e., as functional issues? Which function seems like, when it gets going, it seems like a primal flood and perhaps even overwhelm others, and how do other functions have bearing in the process? Do my Ni and Se seems to communicate well, or is there a wall? Just invent lots of questions.

I admit, the process can get very complex - but that's most of the fun. :O) Break experiences down and translate them into functions, and you could gain more insight into the whole cognitive shebang.

There's the Wheel of Kaulinaskas http://socionics.com/advan/wheel.html which provides some basic labels for functions. Not very dynamic, but slightly in that there are at least some terse, positional labels. Then some MBTI sites which order the processes with labels. What little I have found is kinda shallowand seems incomplete. There may be more out there, but I haven't found, recognized, or validated it yet. So I also work off my own model/understanding I've been defining over time. I take everything I read with tons of salt, experimenting with the ideas a ton before I truly accepting any of them, just as much as my own models.

So make sure your get a basic sense of the functions - i.e., their core definitions (e.g., http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/ex...tuiting.html). Some of definitions appear so limited IMO - e.g., Si. I don't think that Si is just memory/etc. - it's sensations in one's body, a sense of identity/belonging, history, heritage, security, stability, comfort, sensuality, physiological rhythms, health, etc. There are immediate and then more philosophical themes you can project on how these "functions" impacts areas of one's life.

Whew, are we running a marathon? Sorry, once again I tried to be concise and specific. So much for that!
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  #47  
Old 23/09/2006, 09:40 AM
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Thanks for those links. I used the Wheel of Kalinauskas once before, but never really understood it at the time. I tried it using NiTe, and it seemed pretty interesting. Although... one thing that did concern me is that Ne came under the "This is wrong and bad" section, and said that interaction with ENTp, ENFp, INTj and INFj, when making full use of their Ne, would scare me off. The reason this concerns me is that romantically speaking, ENFps have been the most attractive type I've ever met. I don't think it's a case of dual relations between me and ENFps, since the description of dual relations doesn't seem to fit, but it's something that concerns me. It seems that a lot of MBTI sources say INTJs and ENFPs make the best match (3 sources would be personalitypage.com, geocities.com/lifexplore/, and Please Understand Me II by David Keirsey), and yet (although never explicitly stated) what I've read from Socionics seems to imply that INTps and ENFps aren't so great for eachother afterall, unless I'm misunderstanding something. I know that none of the personality typology systems are perfectly compatible with eachother, but when both systems are perfectly valid in their own right, I'm unsure which one to trust in this regard. I know relationships aren't purely type-orientated, but because I'm emotionally vulnerable I try to gather what information I possibly can on the subject to avoid any damage. So it almost feels like a lose-lose situation really, either I am an INTJ/INTp but the type I feel most attracted to isn't one I'll naturally get on well with, or I happen to be a completely different type altogether which in itself would feel like a fall from grace since I've come to be proud of being my type (or at least my believed type). Oh why must fate be so sadistically cruel?

On a somewhat different note, would long-range strategic planning be something that Ni is responsible for? I kind of get that feeling from the cognitiveprocesses.com site although it doesn't explicitly say so. Because long-range planning is something I do constantly (I even started to have a mid-life crisis (which isn't actually a mid-life crisis, I just like to call it that. You could call it a crisis though, I suppose. For the record, I'm only 19 ) a short while ago because I realised that, although I've got my general career planned out, I hadn't planned anything beyond that, i.e. retirement plans and whatnot. Not that it's going to be relevant for a LONG time yet, but I need to have some sort of plan there, even if just a preliminary one, since I feel lost if I don't have some sort of plan for the future. I cannot walk without a direction, so to speak.

Anyways, this'll be something I'll have to spend a good deal of time reflecting upon, probably at least over the course of a couple of months or so (MBTI wasn't something I picked up overnight, but over time I feel I've got a good understanding of it, so the same will hold true for Socionics). For the time being I'll continue to assume I'm an INTJ/INTp, since it's still the type that feels the most..."right" for me, for lack of a better word (that was another thing actually, while I think about it - the site mentioned that one of Ti's roles is finding the right word(s) to express an idea. I can tell by this then that Ti isn't one of my strongest functions, or is at least outweighed by my intuition, since for me trying to describe an image or idea in my head is something that's extremely difficult for me to do accurately). But yes, anyway, thanks everyone for both the help and the debate. It's certainly given me new information to work with.
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  #48  
Old 23/09/2006, 03:41 PM
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My advice is really a simple. Don't mind about this whole matter concerning the functions, letters, mbti and socioncs being diferent. They don't help you. It is too complex. Just be yourself. Then do your test and see who you are. STA is acurate. I belive that Sergei has done a good test. When people are who they are, it probably works. All sort of problems come when people are trying to be who they are not. But when one day you are in a good mood feeling how nice it is to be who you are, then take it and I am sure that you will like it.

Another thing is that. Some people can't take STA. These are the ones, who are from cultures being diferent from USA or Britain. At least that is why I can't answer. I don't know what to choose out from the words. And the reason is that the test is too American minded with it's wording to me.

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  #49  
Old 23/09/2006, 03:47 PM
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I did the STA earlier actually, came out as INTj. Based on the articles regarding INTj/INTp confusion though, I believe I'm just an INTp with a preference for order and structure, at least on the outside. Organised outside, chaotic inside.

I think I mainly rely on this sort of typology because of my lack of self-analysis skills. I can analyse things external to myself, so if I were to watch a video of me in my day to day life, I'd probably be able to analyse me in the same way. Basically I do it to get a better idea of my strengths and weaknesses, so I know what I can capitalise on in life and can avoid making mistakes based around my weaknesses before they happen.

But you're right, I do rely too much on these things. I think sometimes I just need someone else to tell me that.
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Old 23/09/2006, 07:15 PM
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I don't like when I say things like it is caused by this or that or this is wrong and doesn't work . I behave like an expert, when I am really not one. I don't like when a dilledant like me stands out importantly as someone knowing something well. Like socionics. But who really is not someone skilfull in it. When time passes, I reread such postings and I feel guilty in acting stupid.

I have a same problem. I have no method to analyse myself. But I also need something like that. I guess some good training would be usefull. Perhaps a sociodrama. I am finally ready enough inside to watch without getting hurt, when a group of people will act me on stage.

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Old 23/09/2006, 07:39 PM
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Another thing. Is it good idea to make a new forum for those, who are more advanced in socionics? It is interesting to post in here , but this mbti- fakesocionics is not something I enjoy reading. So perhaps there should be a place for those, who have understood it better. So that others could learn the real socionics by browsing their discussions.

And perhaps there should be even a forum for those who are more- more advanced. So it's a system which is as an hierarhy.And by passing it, you will be knowing socionics. Newers will start from the beginners level, will enter into middle one and finally will be in the level of those who understand well enough socionics.

1) 2) 3)
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Old 23/09/2006, 08:40 PM
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it's a good idea, I shall sleep on it.
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Old 13/10/2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Thanks for those links.
Hey B, have you been to this site? http://www.the16types.info/ This is the best shot at functional analysis I've seen on the web yet. (Don't agree 100%, of course, but an interesting validation of some things I've independently ascertained.)

.
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Old 13/10/2006, 10:02 PM
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Ah yes, I used to have that site bookmarked until my hard drive failed, I must admit I'd forgotten all about it. Thanks for that, 'twill be useful.
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Old 10/07/2007, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BLauritson View Post
I believe I'm just an INTp with a preference for order and structure
I don't know mate, but for me there is nothing that suggests you're INTp even your myspace picture doesn't match. Besides you've managed to pass NS2D test, now that's something!
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Old 11/07/2007, 08:19 PM
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hahaha, well, I'm confident beyond reasonable doubt that I'm an INTp nowadays anyway. Does the music on my MySpace not suggest any INTpness? :P

NS2D test eh? Right now I must confess I have no idea what that is exactly, although I know NS2D is a poster on this forum.
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Old 11/07/2007, 08:30 PM
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I'll be honest...I've never had a suicidal thought in my life, but I did check out your webpage and I did listen to the available tracks and I did climb out onto my window ledge and contemplate jumping off....so yep, it did occur to me that you might be INTp

So, +1 for INTp

Now the minus:

We have exchanged a few posts. I was sarcastic, you were sarcastic, I was sarcastic again, so were you, etc., etc.

But I am left absolutely without the desire to remove the WTF placard from your sign and beat you to death with the wooden post.

-1 for INTp

edit: That last one was the test that SG was talking about.

It's all so confusing but very scientific.

Last edited by NS2D; 11/07/2007 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 11/07/2007, 08:54 PM
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LOL. So is beating INTps with a wooden stick a common tendency of yours then?

I think one thing I should mention, which probably does contribute to the apparent obscurity of my type, is that since we communicate by text rather than vocally, it gives me a lot of time to think through what I say before I actually say it. As a result I probably appear more formal than I naturally am. I wonder if this is why a couple of people have considered me an ISTj in the past, actually.
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Old 11/07/2007, 08:58 PM
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hahaha, well, I'm confident beyond reasonable doubt that I'm an INTp nowadays anyway. Does the music on my MySpace not suggest any INTpness? :P

NS2D test eh? Right now I must confess I have no idea what that is exactly, although I know NS2D is a poster on this forum.
Music and art is a kinda irrelevant if you want me to be serious. Anyone can be in love and produce the most beautiful work of art or go through hell and back and paint monsters. I will not start "what's my type" discussion either.

This is what bothers me, your subtype. I've met few INTps of Intuitive subtype. They are usually rude and obnoxious people, that are fixed in their believes and really critical to what others believe. is bad enough but for an INTp to have Intuitive subtype is like

So you either not an Intuitive subtype or not an INTp, if it makes sense to you.
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Old 11/07/2007, 09:13 PM
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I see what you mean. Well, I'll set your mind at ease now by saying I'm not looking to start a "What's my type" thread as a) I'm already confident I know my type and b) I can see you've been getting hassled enough as it is and I don't want to annoy you.

As for the obnoxiousness you've witnessed.. *shrugs* I don't know how to explain that. I'm sure Fe PoLR probably plays a large part in it, although that alone doesn't give any criteria for why some INTps are polite and others are obnoxious. Maybe it's just a maturity issue? I don't know. I can generally type other INTps if I meet them in real life, although I can't identify subtypes in anyone else as I haven't really studied them far enough - it was only an intuitive hunch that made me decide on Ni subtype as opposed to Te subtype, same for actually typing myself as INTp really. But yeah, the other INTps I've met (assuming I typed her correctly of course, one was 18 at the time, the other two I know (coworkers) are in their late 20s as far as I know) have always been polite. I'm starting to think maybe it just depends on the individual's attitude towards their PoLR - if an INTp ignores or disregards his Fe PoLR, he'll likely ignore social conventions such as politeness and so on, whereas if he's aware of his PoLR or something like that, he'd attempt to appear more friendly or polite for the sake of avoiding hostilities. It's only a theory, I'm not sure what you'd make of it.
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