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  #41  
Old 17/01/2008, 09:19 PM
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I am going to hunch it here..infact I think I may know what the theory is..I want to say but I don't want to ruin it ! Rr ! ..must..not..type..on..keyboard !
Oh pms me with your prediction, we should start a Type Pool... like you know.. a dead pool.
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  #42  
Old 17/01/2008, 10:57 PM
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The information you have presented so far suggests that you are an INTp.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?

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That'll be INTj and ENTp , not INTp
Does this mean you think I'm INTj/ENTp or are just disagreeing with his reasoning? If the former, why?

Last edited by itinerant_stapler71; 17/01/2008 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #43  
Old 17/01/2008, 11:04 PM
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Interesting. Can you elaborate?
What exactly do you want to know?
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  #44  
Old 17/01/2008, 11:16 PM
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What exactly do you want to know?
What about my responses suggested and ?
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  #45  
Old 17/01/2008, 11:28 PM
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What about my responses suggested and ?
All of them together.
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  #46  
Old 17/01/2008, 11:41 PM
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All of them together.
Let me put it this way. Can you help me to understand why my responses suggest that I am INTp?
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  #47  
Old 18/01/2008, 01:21 AM
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Let me put it this way. Can you help me to understand why my responses suggest that I am INTp?
That is more difficult, because it is based on my overall understanding of the 16 types. You are most likely INTp because none of the other 15 types fits your profile better.

For example, many of the philosophers you mentioned belong to the group of philosophers that INTps tend to feel drawn to and sympathize with. An INTj would tend to mention other philosophers, such as Kant or Leibniz. INTjs tend to think of humans as subjects, as agents with a free will, whereas INTps are more comfortable with a perspective on humans as objects, which can be explained in a more naturalistic framework.

In comparison to INTps, INTjs are more proactive and optimistic. INTps are empiricists in a sense that INTjs are not.

Some of your responses revealed a kind of hesitation that is typical of Ni dominants. And your typical interests are typically INTp more than INTj.

You are not an extraverted type, because if you would for example an ESTj or an ENTj, you wouldn't have answered the way you did when I asked if you saw yourself as a naturally born leader. Neither are you an ENTp, because in that case you wouldn't have said that you were most sure of your T-ness.

More can be said about this, but I'll let you comment now, if you want.
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  #48  
Old 18/01/2008, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by itinerant_stapler71 View Post
Interesting. Can you elaborate?



Does this mean you think I'm INTj/ENTp or are just disagreeing with his reasoning? If the former, why?
I'm just disagreeing with his reasoning.

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INTjs tend to think of humans as subjects, as agents with a free will, whereas INTps are more comfortable with a perspective on humans as objects, which can be explained in a more naturalistic framework.
I thought that had something to do with E/I, no? I dunno Prom but it seems like you've caught some of that flu, you know what I mean.

Last edited by SG; 18/01/2008 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #49  
Old 18/01/2008, 09:20 AM
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For example, many of the philosophers you mentioned belong to the group of philosophers that INTps tend to feel drawn to and sympathize with. An INTj would tend to mention other philosophers, such as Kant or Leibniz.
Why ? I'm also sure there are plenty of ILI and LII who haven't heard of these people. It would be more useful to base your comparisons on more tangible things.

Here's the thing which lead me to think there may be a language
barrier :

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INTjs tend to think of humans as subjects, as agents with a free will
When you say subjects, what do you mean ? Do you mean for instance we are all subjects to a ruler ? But then you say free will, so we are not subjects ? But who's agency do we work for ? We have agents subjects but free will ?

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whereas INTps are more comfortable with a perspective on humans as objects, which can be explained in a more naturalistic framework.
Viewing humans as objects ? Do you mean they look at humans as if humans don't have emotions and like they are inanimate ? But then you mention a naturalistic framework..so are we talking Darwin now ? What does Darwin have to do with human objects ?


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You are not an extraverted type, because if you would for example an ESTj or an ENTj, you wouldn't have answered the way you did when I asked if you saw yourself as a naturally born leader. Neither are you an ENTp, because in that case you wouldn't have said that you were most sure of your T-ness.
How can you be sure he is not an extroverted type as you have only covered dominant Te types here. You've missed out a lot of other extroverted possibilities and made a conclusion.

Are you sure you are coming to your conclusions via an INTp mental pathway ?

Last edited by Cyclops; 18/01/2008 at 09:25 AM.
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  #50  
Old 18/01/2008, 10:50 AM
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I thought that had something to do with E/I, no? I dunno Prom but it seems like you've caught some of that flu, you know what I mean.
Yes, it has something to do with E/I, but at least when you are comparing INTjs and INTps, it also has something to do with the difference between Ti and Te.

Kant and Leibniz are rationalists, Locke and Hume are empiricists. Kant and Leibniz have Ti based philosophical views, whereas Locke and Hume have Te based philosophical views. And that is no coincidence. If you study these and other philosophers, you will see what I am talking about. The difference between an agent perspective such as Kant's and an object perspective such as Hume's is, essentially, the difference between Ti and Te.

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When you say subjects, what do you mean?
A subject is someone who acts, and his actions is the result of his free will. An object is something that things happen to, as a result of determinism or chance. The concept action is subject based. The concept event is object based.

If you are only a material object, you cannot have free will, because the concept free will has no place in such a naturalistic, objective perspective.

It is only in the sphere of human actions that the concept free will has any meaning. To view humans from that perspective is to adopt an internalistic perspective, and that is, essentially, what Kant and other INTjs are naturally inclined to do.

From an externalistic perspective there are no actions, only events. And consequently there is no place for subjects either in such a perspective. Everything is seen from an objective perspective, and that is, essentially, what INTps are naturally inclined to do when they try to explain and understand the world. Their tendency to pessimism and fatalism is a natural consequence of that. Extraverted Te philosophers, for example Karl Popper, are generally more optimistic, but they both share an empiricist perspective, which is fundamentally different from the rationalistic perspective of INTjs (even though Popper, just like me, worships reason more than anything).

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But then you mention a naturalistic framework..so are we talking Darwin now? What does Darwin have to do with human objects?
Darwin and naturalism in general are good examples of the kind of Te based perspective I am talking about. Naturalism is Te. Darwin is a Te thinker. Kant is not a Te thinker, he is a Ti thinker. Kant sees humans as subjects in his philosophical works, Darwin sees them as objects (at least in his scientific works).

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How can you be sure he is not an extroverted type as you have only covered dominant Te types here. You've missed out a lot of other extroverted possibilities and made a conclusion.
Because none of the possible extraverted T types he could be would answer in the way he did.

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Are you sure you are coming to your conclusions via an INTp mental pathway?
As the pathways are defined in Socionics, yes.

Last edited by Prometheus; 18/01/2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #51  
Old 18/01/2008, 01:51 PM
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Darwin and naturalism in general are good examples of the kind of Te based perspective I am talking about. Naturalism is Te. Darwin is a Te thinker. Kant is not a Te thinker, he is a Ti thinker. Kant sees humans as subjects in his philosophical works, Darwin sees them as objects (at least in his scientific works).
Supposing someone does appreciate Darwinism, that indicates them as a Te ?

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Because none of the possible extraverted T types he could be would answer in the way he did.
But your sure of extroverted Te in his make up, at least in part by someone displaying a Dawrinistic outlook/view on life ?
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  #52  
Old 18/01/2008, 04:49 PM
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Prom,

You seem to have a few fetishes concerning the rational element Logic, specifically black logic.
But there is a lot of things about those philosophers that does not come from the logical elements but rather from a perceptive element or from a ethical element.

You bias might be more a indicator of your own type rather then a indicator of anyone else's type.

I can't say you make a poor argument but you had to raise a strawman first.
The differences between various philosophers goes beyond just vs .
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  #53  
Old 18/01/2008, 05:39 PM
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Supposing someone does appreciate Darwinism, that indicates them as a Te?
Not necessarily in itself, because it would be rather folish not to accept Darwinism from a scientific point of view, but if the person likes Darwinism and he feels comforable with a Darwinist perspective on man and the world, without wanting to add a lot of reservations, then it might be an indication of Te > Ti. And if you are clearly against a Darwinist perspective for some reason, then you are more likely not a Te type.

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But your sure of extroverted Te in his make up, at least in part by someone displaying a Dawrinistic outlook/view on life?
As I tried to explain, the typing process is one of elimination. There are only 16 possible types. Which other type could he reasonably be, really, based on all the information he has provided?

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You bias might be more a indicator of your own type rather then a indicator of anyone else's type.
That is one of the usual responses from people who don't understand what I am talking about. They don't see it, simply because they lack the previous knowledge that is necessary if you are going to be able to understand it. The only realistic solution to that problem is for you to try to catch up by reading a lot.

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The differences between various philosophers goes beyond just vs .
There are other differences, that's true, but the most important and interesting are probably those that have to do with vs .

Last edited by Prometheus; 18/01/2008 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #54  
Old 18/01/2008, 05:54 PM
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That is one of the usual responses from people who don't understand what I am talking about. They don't see it, simply because they lack the previous knowledge that is necessary if you are going to be able to understand it. The only realistic solution to that problem is for you to try to catch up by reading a lot.

There are other differences, that's true, but the most important and interesting are probably those that have to do with vs .
Yes, yes, going back to the old standard response. Woe is me, the poor misunderstood soul. Sadly, no matter much you read, I think you would not understand yourself and that is the source of your problem.

Keep on thinking that the fundamental interest of philosophy is your fetish. and .
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  #55  
Old 18/01/2008, 06:01 PM
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Prom, show me your N! You cant be INTp without one.
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  #56  
Old 18/01/2008, 06:59 PM
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Prom, show me your N! You cant be INTp without one.
How do you want me to show it? What would convince you (except from photos)?

How would I show my S over the Internet if I were an S type of some sort, for example an ISTp or an ISTj? Or do you think that I am already showing S but not N? If so, I would like to know where, and also what kind of S that would be.

Last edited by Prometheus; 18/01/2008 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #57  
Old 18/01/2008, 08:48 PM
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How do you want me to show it? What would convince you (except from photos)?

How would I show my S over the Internet if I were an S type of some sort, for example an ISTp or an ISTj? Or do you think that I am already showing S but not N? If so, I would like to know where, and also what kind of S that would be.
Hey there Prom !

Something I've thought is maybe you've got too much knowledge. It is strange to me because no matter what I know..I think I still essentially communicate according to I am.

The thing is Prom, when you communicate, I can see lots of knowledge within you, but I cannot sense *you* - it is like reading something else from another person.

And because of that, its sometimes difficult to understand you.

Dude.. How do you feel ? Can you tell me your passions ? What makes your blood boil for instance? When do you feel the most confident ? What do you want or aspire to

Can you tell me in your own words what you want from love ?!


Last edited by Cyclops; 18/01/2008 at 08:57 PM.
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  #58  
Old 18/01/2008, 09:40 PM
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The thing is Prom, when you communicate, I can see lots of knowledge within you, but I cannot sense *you* - it is like reading something else from another person.
That is probably a correct observation. I have actually pointed that out myself at least once, either here or on some other forum. But isn't that an important part of my real nature then? To communicate through my knowledge, by constant references to what I have read, and also my conclusions and reflections resulting from all those books I have read -- that is my real person. That is perhaps the most important part of what it is like to be Prom. I think it is a mistake to assume that you would find some part of me that is my real essence, even though you may find other aspects of my personality too. But not anything that is more typical than what you already see.

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And because of that, its sometimes difficult to understand you.
Yes, exactly. I have told people that many times, but they don't accept that explanation.

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Dude.. How do you feel?
It varies, sometimes quite a lot. One of my most common feelings is one of indifference. Not as common but not too infrequent is one of frustration and perhaps even anger, mostly due to what I perceive as other people's stupidity (not yours -- I am not sarcastic here but totally honest).

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Can you tell me your passions?
To seek knowledge, to experience objective quality (beauty) -- in arts of work, when eating and drinking, etc.), to play strategic games, to understand the universe ...

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What makes your blood boil for instance?
To much heat ...

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When do you feel the most confident?
When I have studied something for a long time and know that I have understood it correctly.

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What do you want or aspire to
To know and understand more of the universe, to become a better poker player, to write a masterpiece ...

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Can you tell me in your own words what you want from love?!
I don't want to talk about that directly and explicitly (Fe PoLR, sorry). I have written some song lyrics, though. The main themes are often similar to for example the main theme in the film The Bridges of Madison County where Clint Eastwood pretty much plays a role that is close to his own person as an ISTp (Fe PoLR there too). And the story in that film is very typical for someone with Fe PoLR.
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  #59  
Old 19/01/2008, 09:20 AM
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Oh pms me with your prediction, we should start a Type Pool... like you know.. a dead pool.
I had a theory..then another theory..now I am confused and I will have to sit down for a while
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  #60  
Old 19/01/2008, 11:32 AM
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That is probably a correct observation. I have actually pointed that out myself at least once, either here or on some other forum. But isn't that an important part of my real nature then? To communicate through my knowledge, by constant references to what I have read, and also my conclusions and reflections resulting from all those books I have read -- that is my real person. That is perhaps the most important part of what it is like to be Prom. I think it is a mistake to assume that you would find some part of me that is my real essence, even though you may find other aspects of my personality too. But not anything that is more typical than what you already see.
You are the only person I know who is like that. It is almost like you do not have a personality. Everyone I know gives out something about themselves..a vibe of their personality, attitudes, moods.

Even when someone is being cold hearted and logical..it's still a personality aspect of them.

Your views are never your own.

I remember you posted recenty on a thread, recommending that an ISTp should avoid killing themselves as it is not the answer.

You said you had felt like this. That you were not happy. Why were *you* not happy ?

Supposing you put all your books to one side, all your knowledge, does that mean there is nothing left ?

Does Prom disappear ?

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It varies, sometimes quite a lot. One of my most common feelings is one of indifference. Not as common but not too infrequent is one of frustration and perhaps even anger, mostly due to what I perceive as other people's stupidity (not yours -- I am not sarcastic here but totally honest).
How do these feelings manifest in real life ? Do they show ?

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To seek knowledge, to experience objective quality (beauty) -- in arts of work, when eating and drinking, etc.), to play strategic games, to understand the universe ...
But supposing that you put aside all your knowledge, all your books..tell me what you think..Where is Prom ?


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I don't want to talk about that directly and explicitly (Fe PoLR, sorry). I have written some song lyrics, though. The main themes are often similar to for example the main theme in the film The Bridges of Madison County where Clint Eastwood pretty much plays a role that is close to his own person as an ISTp (Fe PoLR there too). And the story in that film is very typical for someone with Fe PoLR.
I understand this.

I wanted to say that I hope I am not giving you a hard time, and I don't think you think I am either.

Maybe if I read more of your postings over time I will understand better, but there is more being suppressed here..is there a Prom locked away underneath all the studying ? You can't be hollow, no ?

If socionics is about understanding ourselves, and others, then this must be relevant.

Last edited by Cyclops; 19/01/2008 at 11:41 AM.
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