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  #21  
Old 24/10/2008, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
I think this would be brilliant if it were true but struggle to see how it would be...I will present my arguement in the form of a numbered list

1. As far as I'm aware babies all look the same, I don't know how it would be possible to identify a newborn baby using VI because of this, visuallyspotting deformities is one thing, but personality? From what I know VI is a highly skilled practice anyway and is generally unreliable, unless used in context with other information....even if it were possible, it would be necessary for the inspector person to recognise how a fully developed adult would have looked as a baby, in order to compare and speculate how the personality of the baby would develop.

2. I don't really know anything about the developement of babies...however I could speculate that maybe they looked at the babies behaviour (I'm not even sure newborn babies can smile for a number of weeks though, so expressions would be ruled out), I have not heard anything that suggests to me that this is possible and I would imagine the reliability of this would be......not reliable.

3. You have not suggested from what you've written, in anyway that the spartans favoured particular brain types, or killed babies for anything other than physical deformities.

I would suggest looking into the developement of babies, to see whether your theory has any plausability.

Also see if in your study of Spartan history, if you can find any evidence that they killed babies for anything other than physical deformities (excessive crying etc)

Even if it wasn't true the idea could make some great fiction

Thank you for your reply. However, I disagree with your statement that VI is generally unreliable. On the contrary, I find it very reliable for a number of brain types, e.g., INTJ = round faces. The VI I’m referring to, is basic face recognition, not a behavior test/type.

Currently, this is only a working theory, nowhere in the history books does it claim the Spartan elders killed babies for anything other than for being extremely deformed, cachectic or sickly. Very little was written and recorded about the Spartans, what is written is from its enemies. What is known, paints a very unique and distinct set of patterns, laws, behaviors and customs of the Spartan culture. This uniqueness is across the board, all known Spartans (man, women and child) appear to have acted in this way.

How and why? One other possibility is they only killed babies for being extremely deformed, cachectic or sickly and that the most of the other brain types died in the extreme training of the agoge. Remember, the overall theory is that the Spartans were dominated by one brain type. However, I believe we continue to underestimate our ancestors over and over again. Even today, we continue to reinvent inventions from thousands of years ago.
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  #22  
Old 24/10/2008, 01:24 AM
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I am currently working on a theory of a famous historical culture: The Spartans of ancient Greece. My hypothesis is; they may have been dominated by one brain type. Furthermore, this brain type may have been verified and identifiable at birth via V.I. Very little was written and recorded about The Spartans, what is written is from its enemies. What is known, paints a very unique and distinct set of patterns, laws and customs. I would like to open this up to the group for feedback and insight.
Hard to say. I believe that certain societies value different functions, but to say so many had one type...I'm not so sure. The sheer possibility of it would seem low to me.

As far as the VI thing goes: all things are possible. I'd be curious to know what you turn up.
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  #23  
Old 24/10/2008, 01:42 AM
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... Come on ... How could you have had time to learn VI before you were even born? Or maybe it's possible to learn VI instantly the second you first see the light? This sounds like magic, man ...
Ahhh... An ENTp joke...

(BTW. Did you notice those three dots above?)


So what is preventing you from becoming real (non-virtual extrovert that is), telescopically speaking?

Maybe I's are vampires sucking the E's blood?
Makes sense. Makes sense...
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  #24  
Old 24/10/2008, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Appleteck View Post
Thank you for your reply. However, I disagree with your statement that VI is generally unreliable. On the contrary, I find it very reliable for a number of brain types, e.g., INTJ = round faces. The VI I’m referring to, is basic face recognition, not a behavior test/type.

Currently, this is only a working theory, nowhere in the history books does it claim the Spartan elders killed babies for anything other than for being extremely deformed, cachectic or sickly. Very little was written and recorded about the Spartans, what is written is from its enemies. What is known, paints a very unique and distinct set of patterns, laws, behaviors and customs of the Spartan culture. This uniqueness is across the board, all known Spartans (man, women and child) appear to have acted in this way.

How and why? One other possibility is they only killed babies for being extremely deformed, cachectic or sickly and that the most of the other brain types died in the extreme training of the agoge. Remember, the overall theory is that the Spartans were dominated by one brain type. However, I believe we continue to underestimate our ancestors over and over again. Even today, we continue to reinvent inventions from thousands of years ago.
I don't think it's possible (I may be wrong) to VI a newborn baby.

Had you considered selective breeding or anything like that as a possible explanation for brain type theory.

Having them killed off in that training thing might work. I dunno to be honest!
or the fodder line of battle? There would certainly be a strong element of survival of the fittest?

Your theory is not totally inplausable, but I think you'll struggle to find the evidence for it, especially if your saying that sources are limited.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, could their unique society be explained by culture alone? Or would this Braintype-Cleansing be necessary?
Well good luck with it!

Have you read that bit in one of the hitchhikers guide books, where they send all the hairdressers and estate agents into space? Your question reminded me of that.
I wonder what the dominant types are in those professions....?

Last edited by king; 24/10/2008 at 02:55 AM.
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  #25  
Old 24/10/2008, 03:32 AM
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That's a good book.
Agreed.............
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  #26  
Old 24/10/2008, 04:00 PM
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Have you read that bit in one of the hitchhikers guide books, where they send all the hairdressers and estate agents into space? Your question reminded me of that.
I wonder what the dominant types are in those professions....?
That series was absolutely wonderful.

Eh....you could take a straw poll.
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  #27  
Old 28/10/2008, 01:11 AM
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That series was absolutely wonderful.

Eh....you could take a straw poll.
Good idea..I will.
Also those grey looking people who hang round inside betting shops.
Got any ideas about them...compulsive gamblers?
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  #28  
Old 28/10/2008, 01:45 AM
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Good idea..I will.
Also those grey looking people who hang round inside betting shops.
Got any ideas about them...compulsive gamblers?
Probably EP.
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  #29  
Old 28/10/2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
I don't think it's possible (I may be wrong) to VI a newborn baby.

Had you considered selective breeding or anything like that as a possible explanation for brain type theory.

Having them killed off in that training thing might work. I dunno to be honest!
or the fodder line of battle? There would certainly be a strong element of survival of the fittest?

Your theory is not totally inplausable, but I think you'll struggle to find the evidence for it, especially if your saying that sources are limited.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, could their unique society be explained by culture alone? Or would this Braintype-Cleansing be necessary?
Well good luck with it!

Have you read that bit in one of the hitchhikers guide books, where they send all the hairdressers and estate agents into space? Your question reminded me of that.
I wonder what the dominant types are in those professions....?

"I don't think it's possible (I may be wrong) to VI a newborn baby."

I disagree. On the contrary, I find it very reliable for a number of brain types, e.g., INTJ = round faces. The VI I’m referring to, is basic face recognition, not a behavior test/type.

"Had you considered selective breeding or anything like that as a possible explanation for brain type theory."

You would still need a concentrated level of people of the same brain type to use for selective breeding. How would this be explained?

Survival of the fittest, with the Spartans started the first week of birth. Then at age seven with the extreme training of the agoge.

“Next came one of Sparta's most controversial and disputed institutions: the krypteia or 'secret service brigade'. Membership of this was reserved for boys who had shown particular promise. Hard cases would be sent out into the wilds with basic rations and a knife. By day, they would lie low and, at night, would infiltrate the valley below, murdering any helot they caught.

The competitive nature of the Spartan system found its most extreme expression at the sanctuary of Artemis Orthia. If a boy survived his first five years in the agoge, he would go there at the age of 12 for a brutal rite of passage.

On the altar, cheeses were placed – the sort of homely nourishing foodstuff that young boys on short rations would have found irresistible. The challenge was simple: to steal as many cheeses as possible. But in front of the altar was a phalanx of ephebes – boys in their 20s – carrying whips. Their instructions were to protect the altar, showing neither mercy nor restraint.

Indoctrinated with the tenets of endurance and perseverance, and determined to excel in this public display, the 12-year-olds would brave the gauntlet again and again. Meeting the whips face on, they would have suffered the most horrific injuries. The weakest never left alive.” http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...spartans1.html

This was just the beginning of the life of a Spartan. How many brain types can you count that can not only live through this, but thrive in it- both physicality and mentally? Their aim was to create the perfect state protected by the perfect solider and in doing so, may have created one of the only cultures dominated by a single brain type. I believe it was this grueling process, starting from birth, which made brain-type “cleansing” not only happen, but necessary.
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  #30  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Appleteck View Post
"I don't think it's possible (I may be wrong) to VI a newborn baby."

I disagree. On the contrary, I find it very reliable for a number of brain types, e.g., INTJ = round faces. The VI I’m referring to, is basic face recognition, not a behavior test/type.

"Had you considered selective breeding or anything like that as a possible explanation for brain type theory."

You would still need a concentrated level of people of the same brain type to use for selective breeding. How would this be explained?

Survival of the fittest, with the Spartans started the first week of birth. Then at age seven with the extreme training of the agoge.

“Next came one of Sparta's most controversial and disputed institutions: the krypteia or 'secret service brigade'. Membership of this was reserved for boys who had shown particular promise. Hard cases would be sent out into the wilds with basic rations and a knife. By day, they would lie low and, at night, would infiltrate the valley below, murdering any helot they caught.

The competitive nature of the Spartan system found its most extreme expression at the sanctuary of Artemis Orthia. If a boy survived his first five years in the agoge, he would go there at the age of 12 for a brutal rite of passage.

On the altar, cheeses were placed – the sort of homely nourishing foodstuff that young boys on short rations would have found irresistible. The challenge was simple: to steal as many cheeses as possible. But in front of the altar was a phalanx of ephebes – boys in their 20s – carrying whips. Their instructions were to protect the altar, showing neither mercy nor restraint.

Indoctrinated with the tenets of endurance and perseverance, and determined to excel in this public display, the 12-year-olds would brave the gauntlet again and again. Meeting the whips face on, they would have suffered the most horrific injuries. The weakest never left alive.” http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...spartans1.html

This was just the beginning of the life of a Spartan. How many brain types can you count that can not only live through this, but thrive in it- both physicality and mentally? Their aim was to create the perfect state protected by the perfect solider and in doing so, may have created one of the only cultures dominated by a single brain type. I believe it was this grueling process, starting from birth, which made brain-type “cleansing” not only happen, but necessary.
OK I'm sold. What are you going to do with this theory?
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  #31  
Old 29/10/2008, 10:43 PM
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OK I'm sold. What are you going to do with this theory?

A theory is only as good as the eyes and ears that research and debate it. I welcome all forms of ideas, constructive criticism and other possibilities. This is the first step, the more feedback I receive, the more the theory can be explained, examined and tested, thank you.
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  #32  
Old 30/10/2008, 12:09 AM
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Please allow me to clarify the statement: Furthermore, this brain type may have been verified and identifiable at birth via V.I. I was referring to the Spartan form of eugenics: In Sparta, infants were examined at birth and if they were extremely deformed, cachectic or sickly they were placed in the Apothetae (Greek language, ), meaning "depository" as Plutarch describes. This practice was part of the Spartan institution known as agoge. This practice was not performed by the parent, but by the state (a trained elder statesman). This is what history tells us, I believe when examining the child at birth, they looked for certain attributes using a primitive form of V.I.
This is quite interesting. I too wonder if it is possible to VI babies. Babies certainly display different temperaments.

Something similar to this, is something i've thought about in regards to the Celts.. After some migration through Europe, they settled home in Ireland. From Ireland they moved over to Scotland and conquered the Picts. The Celts that moved over from Ireland were warriors, looking to expand power and gain extra land and influence. It's known that the Highlanders were fearsome warriors. I would say that Irish were Alpha and those who moved over from Ireland to Scotland were largely Beta (for reasons mentioned) or at least one could say they valued Se.

It's just an idea I thought of before, but didn't really do much with it. But on the face of things, it's possible to create a culture based on certain values. At the moment I would say the Western world has a strong Gamma focus, with it's industrialisation, but like any culture which settles different skills are required for different things.

Maybe a society which becomes too specialised is risking playing itself out of the competition, like an animal that's become too adjusted to one particular environment, which is why the Spartans ultimately died out.
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  #33  
Old 30/10/2008, 04:12 AM
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This is quite interesting. I too wonder if it is possible to VI babies. Babies certainly display different temperaments.

Something similar to this, is something i've thought about in regards to the Celts.. After some migration through Europe, they settled home in Ireland. From Ireland they moved over to Scotland and conquered the Picts. The Celts that moved over from Ireland were warriors, looking to expand power and gain extra land and influence. It's known that the Highlanders were fearsome warriors. I would say that Irish were Alpha and those who moved over from Ireland to Scotland were largely Beta (for reasons mentioned) or at least one could say they valued Se.

It's just an idea I thought of before, but didn't really do much with it. But on the face of things, it's possible to create a culture based on certain values. At the moment I would say the Western world has a strong Gamma focus, with it's industrialisation, but like any culture which settles different skills are required for different things.

Maybe a society which becomes too specialised is risking playing itself out of the competition, like an animal that's become too adjusted to one particular environment, which is why the Spartans ultimately died out.

It is a fact that, 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct. There is a reason why we are still alive and thriving as a species- different brain types. We needed all brain types, to have remained this long. That’s how it works, if a species cannot adapt-good-by, evolution has no favorites.

The Alligators, Sharks and Cockroaches have been on this planet for 200 million years, because they have the ability to adapt like no other. That is the legacy the Spartans left us, no single brain type can survive by itself.
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  #34  
Old 31/10/2008, 05:07 PM
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It is a fact that, 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct. There is a reason why we are still alive and thriving as a species- different brain types. We needed all brain types, to have remained this long. Thats how it works, if a species cannot adapt-good-by, evolution has no favorites.
I'm not sure if we as a species still survive due to difference in brain types, but it's certainly possible. If the whole species had the same brain type then it would create different ramifications for 'socialness' inherent in humans.
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The Alligators, Sharks and Cockroaches have been on this planet for 200 million years, because they have the ability to adapt like no other. That is the legacy the Spartans left us, no single brain type can survive by itself.
Yeah that's possible. Or that ideology is in essence flawed.
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  #35  
Old 01/11/2008, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Appleteck View Post
It is a fact that, 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct. There is a reason why we are still alive and thriving as a species- different brain types. We needed all brain types, to have remained this long. That’s how it works, if a species cannot adapt-good-by, evolution has no favorites.

The Alligators, Sharks and Cockroaches have been on this planet for 200 million years, because they have the ability to adapt like no other. That is the legacy the Spartans left us, no single brain type can survive by itself.
Makes sense. Sense is the key word here. Hey, did you see that guys?

Thanks SG!
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  #36  
Old 06/11/2008, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
I don't think it's possible (I may be wrong) to VI a newborn baby.

Had you considered selective breeding or anything like that as a possible explanation for brain type theory.

Having them killed off in that training thing might work. I dunno to be honest!
or the fodder line of battle? There would certainly be a strong element of survival of the fittest?

Your theory is not totally inplausable, but I think you'll struggle to find the evidence for it, especially if your saying that sources are limited.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one, could their unique society be explained by culture alone? Or would this Braintype-Cleansing be necessary?
Well good luck with it!

Have you read that bit in one of the hitchhikers guide books, where they send all the hairdressers and estate agents into space? Your question reminded me of that.
I wonder what the dominant types are in those professions....?
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I'm not sure if we as a species still survive due to difference in brain types, but it's certainly possible. If the whole species had the same brain type then it would create different ramifications for 'socialness' inherent in humans.
Yeah that's possible. Or that ideology is in essence flawed.

I believe having only one brain type would have killed us off long ago. We would not have survived the last 10,000 years. We needed the protectors, creators, visionaries and intellectuals. A single brain type would not have been sufficient to get us this far. As for ideology, by definition is “a system of ideas and ideals”, which I believe we have yet to accomplice as a species.

A start would be to research, test and confirm brain types in humans as a science. This would allow us to identify brain types at a very early age and allow for mentorship, build career paths, and finally an insight and tutorial on the subject of who we are- as a brain type. Once proven, this form of Brain Type Classification (BTC) could be taught and documented to trained individuals to allow for mentorship of the young (voluntarily).
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  #37  
Old 06/11/2008, 07:04 AM
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I believe having only one brain type would have killed us off long ago. We would not have survived the last 10,000 years. We needed the protectors, creators, visionaries and intellectuals. A single brain type would not have been sufficient to get us this far.
You may believe this, but is there any reasons for you believing this? What I said was that society and humans would have developed differently with only one brain type, but survive we very well still could have. Infact maybe with different brain types our chances of still being currently in existence have been lessened. How can you be so sure in what you believe?
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As for ideology, by definition is a system of ideas and ideals, which I believe we have yet to accomplice as a species.
You do not understand. Have you never heard of political ideologies? Perhaps the Spartans fall under this bracket.
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A start would be to research, test and confirm brain types in humans as a science.
For what purpose? To unequivically prove the existence of different brain types do you mean?
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This would allow us to identify brain types at a very early age and allow for mentorship, build career paths, and finally an insight and tutorial on the subject of who we are- as a brain type. Once proven, this form of Brain Type Classification (BTC) could be taught and documented to trained individuals to allow for mentorship of the young (voluntarily).
Interesting, but the problem is that people will want to choose what they think is best for themselves and their children. I'm not sure how you can develop such a system wide case of classification, schooling, career classes for certain 'types' like some sort of caste system, and then put (voluntary) at the end of it. It would be nothing of the sort.
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  #38  
Old 06/11/2008, 07:30 PM
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You may believe this, but is there any reasons for you believing this? What I said was that society and humans would have developed differently with only one brain type, but survive we very well still could have. Infact maybe with different brain types our chances of still being currently in existence have been lessened. How can you be so sure in what you believe?
This is my opinion, which, like yours, cannot be proven. Read your history of the last 10,000+ years, I believe you will come to the same conclusion. Then ask yourself, could one of the 16 known brain types have survived, alone? I believe, just like all other known life forms on this planet; evolution, gave us a chance, which allowed us to adapt to the environment, climate and known threats. Evolution gave us brain types; Homo sapiens prevailed, unlike the Cro-Magnon man and the Neanderthals.

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You do not understand. Have you never heard of political ideologies? Perhaps the Spartans fall under this bracket.
Read my earlier post:
“Their aim was to create the perfect state protected by the perfect solider and in doing so, may have created one of the only cultures dominated by a single brain type. I believe it was this grueling process, starting from birth, which made brain-type “cleansing” not only happen, but necessary.”


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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
For what purpose? To unequivically prove the existence of different brain types do you mean?
Correct, to unequivocally prove the existence of different brain types to a science. This would open the doors for brain type research and acceptance


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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Interesting, but the problem is that people will want to choose what they think is best for themselves and their children. I'm not sure how you can develop such a system wide case of classification, schooling, career classes for certain 'types' like some sort of caste system, and then put (voluntary) at the end of it. It would be nothing of the sort.
Voluntary, is the key word. I am suggesting a voluntary class, chosen and paid for by the parent, e.g., flag football, Karate, dancing, etc.
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  #39  
Old 06/11/2008, 07:46 PM
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This is my opinion, which, like yours, cannot be proven. Read your history of the last 10,000+ years, I believe you will come to the same conclusion. Then ask yourself, could one of the 16 known brain types have survived, alone? I believe, just like all other known life forms on this planet; evolution, gave us a chance, which allowed us to adapt to the environment, climate and known threats. Evolution gave us brain types; Homo sapiens prevailed, unlike the Cro-Magnon man and the Neanderthals.
You do not understand evolution, cro-magnon and neandertals. Do you realise that 10,000 is nothing in comparison to the formation of humans? It is not simply my opinion. It can be proven (and has been proven) that I am correct. Although I think it is reasonable to think that evolution took a path to develop brain types. I have suggested this myself previously.


Quote:
Read my earlier post:
Their aim was to create the perfect state protected by the perfect solider and in doing so, may have created one of the only cultures dominated by a single brain type. I believe it was this grueling process, starting from birth, which made brain-type cleansing not only happen, but necessary.
Yes I read it earlier. Do you understand ideology in such things as politics and society?

Different types can function under an ideology. There is little if nothing to suggest an intellectual cleansing of Spartans. There is evidence to suggest that people conformed to a cultural ideology.



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Correct, to unequivocally prove the existence of different brain types to a science. This would open the doors for brain type research and acceptance
ok



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Voluntary, is the key word. I am suggesting a voluntary class, chosen and paid for by the parent, e.g., flag football, Karate, dancing, etc.
A voluntary class to do what exactly? Personality tests (including MBTI already give career advice tutorials.)
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Old 06/11/2008, 09:31 PM
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You do not understand evolution, cro-magnon and neandertals. Do you realise that 10,000 is nothing in comparison to the formation of humans? It is not simply my opinion. It can be proven (and has been proven) that I am correct. Although I think it is reasonable to think that evolution took a path to develop brain types. I have suggested this myself previously.
Thank you for your reply. The last 10,000 years and the formation of humans are two different subjects with two different time frames. I asked to read/research the last 10,000+ years to allow for a more detailed view of recent human history. Once read, ask yourself, could one of the 16 known brain types have survived, alone? If you still believe just one could have survived, we will just have to agree to disagree. As for, the Cro-Magnon man and the Neanderthals, they were only used as examples of possible single brain type species.

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Yes I read it earlier. Do you understand ideology in such things as politics and society?
Different types can function under an ideology. There is little if nothing to suggest an intellectual cleansing of Spartans. There is evidence to suggest that people conformed to a cultural ideology.
Again, I suggest to read/research what is known about the Spartan culture, and then form an opinion. If you still believe the Spartans were not dominated by one brain type, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Read my earlier post:
“Their aim was to create the perfect state protected by the perfect solider and in doing so, may have created one of the only cultures dominated by a single brain type. I believe it was this grueling process, starting from birth, which made brain-type “cleansing” not only happen, but necessary.”


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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
A voluntary class to do what exactly? Personality tests (including MBTI already give career advice tutorials.)
Correct, to unequivocally prove the existence of different brain types to a science. This would open the doors for brain type research and acceptance. NOTE: currently, we don’t have unequivocally proof and therefore we don’t have acceptance.

Read my earlier post:
A start would be to research, test and confirm brain types in humans as a science. This would allow us to identify brain types at a very early age and allow for mentorship, build career paths, and finally an insight and tutorial on the subject of who we are- as a brain type. Once proven, this form of Brain Type Classification (BTC) could be taught and documented to trained individuals to allow for mentorship of the young (voluntarily).
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