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Old 28/11/2007, 11:51 PM
Dr. Merkw Dr. Merkw is offline
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Default My Odd Typing Dilemma

Well, I am new here, but I proceed.
I'm relatively well acquainted with Socionics, and have spent quite a while of time on the16types.info forum. Despite all this, I have been completely unable to come to a finite conclusion on my type. In MBTI I test as an INTP (and occasionally INTJ), and on the Enneagram I test as a 5 sp/sx. I know that many people seem to have trouble discerning between socionics INTjs and INTps, yet my situation is different. Since I am quite certain that I am not a socionics j/rational, I have been trying to decide whether I am an ENTp or INTp. I appear much more like an INTp, and I can be very withdrawn and reclusive. On the other hand, I feel as if my style of thinking more closely resembles ENTp.

Anyone have an opinion on what my type actually is, and what the source of this odd dilemma might be?
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Old 29/11/2007, 01:10 AM
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Your profile still says 'Undecided (between INTj and INTp)' So now is it really a love triangle
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Old 29/11/2007, 01:53 AM
Dr. Merkw Dr. Merkw is offline
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Your profile still says 'Undecided (between INTj and INTp)' So now is it really a love triangle
Oops. Didn't notice that. That was back yonder in the days when I accepted J as a more likely possibility (it still remains, yet in a somewhat diminished manner).

There. It has been changed on my profile.
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Old 29/11/2007, 03:55 AM
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Hi there, I'm no expert on this either. Something I have noticed is how E or I a person is during their teens can be a good indication. As a teen I was to a large extent a loner. Over the years I have got better at social interactions, as I've placed an emphasis on developing that. Although I can hold a conversation etc., I still prefer smaller group interactions. My E friends demonstrate an ability to chat, interact, and to organise big social events that go way beyond what would make me personally feel at ease.
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Old 29/11/2007, 07:59 AM
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Hi there, I'm no expert on this either. Something I have noticed is how E or I a person is during their teens can be a good indication. As a teen I was to a large extent a loner. Over the years I have got better at social interactions, as I've placed an emphasis on developing that. Although I can hold a conversation etc., I still prefer smaller group interactions. My E friends demonstrate an ability to chat, interact, and to organise big social events that go way beyond what would make me personally feel at ease.
I was a loner too during asolescence and I am an Extravert (by the way this is giving me a lot of trouble in determining my type in MBTI I know I am E but I can't recognize myself well in any of the four extraverts). Being an extravert simply means being interested by the exterior or "what is outside": and one could be talking about objects as well as people. These are the most determining signs about the extraversion or introversion of a person:

- Has a loud voice
- If you don't know the opinion of an extravert about something then simply you weren't listenning. Prone to the "fout in mouth" disease.
- Enjoys sudden contact even if he doesn't have a lot of friends.
- Makes a lot of gestures with his hands.
- His face expresses more emotions.

The first three apply to me. The last two not really.
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Old 30/11/2007, 03:44 PM
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typology has been around for thousands of years. but there are other things which have not. Televisions and computers are among them. Sometimes you have to learn to throw away these unnatural things before you can even start to figure out who you really are.

My best advice to you is that you avoid all of the internet mumbo jumbo and read deeper into Jung's original theory. spend less time watching television and playing computer games or getting drunk, or partying; or whatever it is you do that fragments you into different spaces and times, with contradictory qualities. then, when it is just you, and you alone- then you will feel, in silent reflection and contemplation, what it is you really want to do with your life. that is what you really are.
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Old 03/12/2007, 09:51 PM
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Complicated-complexor, I agree with most things you are saying, although the voice thing is highly subjective (ie you can be an introvert and still speak loudly..more so than the other differences) Also both introverts and extroverts gesticulate with hands-it is to be more precise that it tends to be from elbows down with introverts. I agree about that social is not necessarily on the face of it indicator, but as extroverts have slightly higher activation thresholds and also they have as they tend to have a need to think out loud to know what they think..would it not make sense for them to therefore at least in general,require more external social contact?
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Old 07/12/2007, 01:52 AM
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I was a loner too during asolescence and I am an Extravert (by the way this is giving me a lot of trouble in determining my type in MBTI I know I am E but I can't recognize myself well in any of the four extraverts). Being an extravert simply means being interested by the exterior or "what is outside": and one could be talking about objects as well as people. .
Yes I thought of this also -had the same problem too. Introverts know better if they are introvert than extroverts know if they are extrovert? I thought it was super obvious initially but... It is not super obvious now. Sometimes the outside teaches us what we have inside. Still have no super clue...

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typology has been around for thousands of years. but there are other things which have not. Televisions and computers are among them. Sometimes you have to learn to throw away these unnatural things before you can even start to figure out who you really are.
I talk like this when I feel really good.

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My best advice to you is that you avoid all of the internet mumbo jumbo and read deeper into Jung's original theory. spend less time watching television and playing computer games or getting drunk, or partying; or whatever it is you do that fragments you into different spaces and times, with contradictory qualities. then, when it is just you, and you alone- then you will feel, in silent reflection and contemplation, what it is you really want to do with your life. that is what you really are.
You are a balanced ENTp!

How unusual. What are you made of? Are you really ENTp?

From your text I must draw the conclusion you live close to the nature. City-ENTps dont talk like you do. The ENTp is a stress machine.

I think you love artistic qualities. Do you play any instruments/compose music/paint?

Last edited by Vibration; 07/12/2007 at 01:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 07/12/2007, 05:29 PM
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It would be interesting to hear what type you think that I am.

I grew up in a very natural environment.

I can draw and compose music quite well.

I am not always so relaxed. I am prone to tension.
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Old 07/12/2007, 10:47 PM
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It would be interesting to hear what type you think that I am.

I grew up in a very natural environment.

I can draw and compose music quite well.

I am not always so relaxed. I am prone to tension.
Read your latest post on INTp uncovered and I did not need any translation AT ALL. I have thought/am thinking very similar things. To me, that suggests we are the same type.

I was very interested in drawing when I was young but I am much better at composing music. Have my own studio. I dream of art but work in science because it is "safer"-how many times have you not heard that art does not pay off... Many of my "ENTp" friends are good/or have great talent in art/music. But none of my ENTp friends chose that road.

Your tension doesnt show. Are you a pressure boiler or what?

Are we ENTps?
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Old 08/12/2007, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic View Post
It would be interesting to hear what type you think that I am.

I grew up in a very natural environment.

I can draw and compose music quite well.

I am not always so relaxed. I am prone to tension.
I know you're a psychology major. My question is what would you like to do with psychology?
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Old 09/12/2007, 09:38 PM
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Read your latest post on INTp uncovered and I did not need any translation AT ALL. I have thought/am thinking very similar things. To me, that suggests we are the same type.

I was very interested in drawing when I was young but I am much better at composing music. Have my own studio. I dream of art but work in science because it is "safer"-how many times have you not heard that art does not pay off... Many of my "ENTp" friends are good/or have great talent in art/music. But none of my ENTp friends chose that road.

Your tension doesnt show. Are you a pressure boiler or what?

Are we ENTps?
I agree with you about art and music. If I could afford to spend my life creating I would.

My mood varies from time to time. There have been times where I have felt like I could explode. People around me sometimes can notice it happening before I do. I have alot of tensions about other people that can build up if things are not stacking in my favor. Romance is the worst. I used to believe I was a sort of romantic, but I became disillusioned after a couple romantic failures. I now avoid intimacy and close friendships.

But are we ENTps/ILEs? I have my doubts sometimes, but I always come back to that type. I am, even when i have feelings of incompetence or failure, always drawn eventually to the systems and structures and am always pulled away from the idea of relaxing and being around people.

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Originally Posted by complicater complexer
I know you're a psychology major. My question is what would you like to do with psychology?
Currently I have ideas which involve systems more than physiology. That is, I think in terms of logical principles rather than in terms of anatomical structures. You could call it "Transcendental" or "formal" thinking. I relate these thoughts to psychology and have ideas which can be applied to psychological theory, but which are not limited to that.

I am still young and don't know what to do with my life. I graduate this semester and now must think about graduate school.
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Old 09/12/2007, 10:09 PM
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So you didn't choose that major to be in contact with people, you have chosen it just for some intellectual curiosity right?

I would like to ask you in reture what type do you think I am? Not that I am doubting my type but just to see whether my type is remarkable.
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Last edited by complicater-complexer; 09/12/2007 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10/12/2007, 05:04 PM
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So you didn't choose that major to be in contact with people, you have chosen it just for some intellectual curiosity right?

I would like to ask you in reture what type do you think I am? Not that I am doubting my type but just to see whether my type is remarkable.
That is true. I am more intellectually curious than I am interested in having contact with people. Though that isn't to say I don't like people, or being around them. People tend to like me; but I don't like getting too close.

I don't know what type you are. Id say that if you are SLE you are distorted in some way. I used to think of you as an introvert. But I don't know you personally so I cannot say that there is much basis for that impression.

Last edited by Epic; 10/12/2007 at 05:05 PM. Reason: contradiction
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Old 11/12/2007, 10:33 AM
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That is true. I am more intellectually curious than I am interested in having contact with people. Though that isn't to say I don't like people, or being around them. People tend to like me; but I don't like getting too close.

I don't know what type you are. Id say that if you are SLE you are distorted in some way. I used to think of you as an introvert. But I don't know you personally so I cannot say that there is much basis for that impression.
One question: how important is competence for you?

One more thing, you're a psychology major. Tell me, not in Jungian standards but rather in Eysenck standards or I don't know what standards are used in psychology am I an introvert or an extravert?

I'll tell you why did you think of me as an introvert. There are two reasons:

1. During adolescence I hated and was hated but everybody at school as a result of mostly excentrity and due a little bit to indiscreteness (but the first was the major reason). That made me a loner which has forced me to develop the introverted functions: mainly Ti which started to develop exponentially since the age of 15.

2. I was in a very tough school which was simply not a sensing school. So I had to develop functions other than sensation which is extraverted. As a result I didn't use Se as an average extraverted sensation type would use it and I became a distorted type. If you ask my friends and my family they will all agree on the fact that I am an introverted thinking type. This is the image that I give. But if you make them discover the typology more deeply I think that they would agree on the fact that I have some of the traits of the SLE.

This is making me trouble in finding my MBTI type. Now I am more open than ever before to the fact that I could be ESTP or ESFP.

If one is really a very distorted type, how can one know his real type?
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Last edited by complicater-complexer; 11/12/2007 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11/12/2007, 08:52 PM
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One question: how important is competence for you?

One more thing, you're a psychology major. Tell me, not in Jungian standards but rather in Eysenck standards or I don't know what standards are used in psychology am I an introvert or an extravert?

I'll tell you why did you think of me as an introvert. There are two reasons:

1. During adolescence I hated and was hated but everybody at school as a result of mostly excentrity and due a little bit to indiscreteness (but the first was the major reason). That made me a loner which has forced me to develop the introverted functions: mainly Ti which started to develop exponentially since the age of 15.

2. I was in a very tough school which was simply not a sensing school. So I had to develop functions other than sensation which is extraverted. As a result I didn't use Se as an average extraverted sensation type would use it and I became a distorted type. If you ask my friends and my family they will all agree on the fact that I am an introverted thinking type. This is the image that I give. But if you make them discover the typology more deeply I think that they would agree on the fact that I have some of the traits of the SLE.

This is making me trouble in finding my MBTI type. Now I am more open than ever before to the fact that I could be ESTP or ESFP.

If one is really a very distorted type, how can one know his real type?
To answer your first question: I think that competence is the most important thing of all, though I just only started realizing that recently.

To answer your other questions: I don't think that I, being a person that has never met you, should be telling you what you are. Psychology is still a vague and open field. Empirical tests like self-learning tests pioneered by Eysenck, can only go so far. In my opinion the best way to understand the difference between introversion and extraversion is to attempt to experience these things for yourself, and learn to "differentiate". Figure out what each feels like inside of you and then decide which state of mind you tend to be in most of the time.

Introversion is made of many ideas and thoughts that are separate from what is going on around it. Extraversion is not separate from what is happening around it. Its thinking, feeling or sensing, as a natural consequence, is limited to what is available at the moment. It will enjoy what is available to enjoy without seeking out alternatives. This may come across as shallow, but this is because it does not know what is alternative. Introversion does not know what is happening outside of it. It is made of memories and knowledge of facts and ideas; it is constantly self-conscious.

The thing is that both of these need one another in order to integrate a conscious experience. When one is working as a primary it uses the knowledge of the other one only so that it may maintain its grip over awareness.

Keep in mind that introversion and extraversion, in Jungian terms, were not discovered by him. Jung's theory of psychological functions is based almost exactly upon Kant's science of Critique of Pure Reason. Kant's critique of pure reason identified functions, but not types as Jung made them. I think that socionists in the east are more aware of this than are practitioner's in the west of MBTI.

The type exists because of the necessity of the mind to organize information in places in space and time, but is not a perfect model of the structure of the psyche. It is only the intuitive placement of variables. The placement of the variables form the model-A.

Perhaps you are not ready to type yourself? I think that it is okay to not be sure of your time but still accurately type other people. Just be open to consideration and be willing to accept that you are wrong about some things.

-----

I knew someone I thought, almost for sure, was SLI and described him and my relation to him on this forum. SG told me that he believed that he was SLE. As I have gotten to know this person I realize that SG was right.

I knew another person who, for almost a year, I thought was SEI. She took a test that stated she is IEI. At first I resisted, but now I realize that it does indeed make more sense to state she is intuitive, not sensing.

Learning to type is a gradual process of refinement through experience. You will get better but you have to be patient with yourself. You will learn to differentiate but don't rush yourself. Learn your own pace.

Quite simply- I am not yet good enough to confidently type you in this manner.
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Old 11/12/2007, 09:12 PM
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Two things:

I won't waste time making sure what my sociotype is because I was already typed by two socionists as SLE ( or rather the other (Rick DeLong) hesitates between SLE and LSI but to me it is enough to know the first two functions). But I want to take consciousness of my type. I have some consciousness of it but not as much as in enneagram. In enneagram I doubted type 6 a lot and every time the enneagramist I know helped me overcome that doubt. Now I see so clearly how 6 am I that if I tell myself: well let's pretend I am something else; I will see how I will only be able to do it apparently, plenty of things will remain terribly sixish. It's like being right-handed and pretending to be left-handed. What is frustrating me is that I still didn't reach that level in socionics.

I am making progress in MBTI but I feel like gathering info in a see of info. Organizing the ideas takes time also by the way. I can type a lot of people in MBTI and see from different angles how their type fits, but I can't type myself. Of course I can identify the function to which belongs a certain behaviour but I can't even detect my dominant or my inferior which is really strange. I read 140 pages on the inferior function (see "Psychotherapy" for Marie-Louise Von Franz) and still I can't detect my inferior function.

I HAVE INTROSPECTED SO MUCH THAT I AM HAVING A TERRIBLE HEAD-ACHE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT I CAN'T STOP DOING THAT.
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Old 11/12/2007, 09:46 PM
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I won't waste time making sure what my sociotype is because I was already typed by two socionists as SLE ( or rather the other (Rick DeLong) hesitates between SLE and LSI but to me it is enough to know the first two functions).
If Rick hesitates between SLE and LSI that proves that he is using a bad typing method. You should never be in doubt between two types of opposing temperaments. That is ridiculous.

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But I want to take consciousness of my type. I have some consciousness of it but not as much as in enneagram. In enneagram I doubted type 6 a lot and every time the enneagramist I know helped me overcome that doubt. Now I see so clearly how 6 am I that if I tell myself: well let's pretend I am something else; I will see how I will only be able to do it apparently, plenty of things will remain terribly sixish. It's like being right-handed and pretending to be left-handed. What is frustrating me is that I still didn't reach that level in socionics.
If you are a 6 you are not an SLE. That is pretty simple. Type 6 is typically the home for ESIs, and if you are sure that you are a logical type, that STRONGLY suggests that you are an LSI -- if LSI and SLE are your only options.
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Old 11/12/2007, 10:30 PM
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If Rick hesitates between SLE and LSI that proves that he is using a bad typing method. You should never be in doubt between two types of opposing temperaments. That is ridiculous.
Mirror? Yeah, could be confusing. For example I still don't know if Denzel is INTj or ENTp. I have plenty examples of that. You see, unless you meet someone in person, this could always be the case.
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Old 11/12/2007, 10:45 PM
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Complictor-complexor, and others whom are contributing, if I may add to your discussion?

I personally have found it useful to interact with others to help me find my type (there has been at least as many negatives as positives with this..but as with everything it is always a learning curve!) At one point, personally I thought I was ESTj!..although a somewhat miscontrued one (I think, in retrospect, this was created in a work environ [always a tricky situ to use..as others there, as they are *not* necessarilty being themselves] but as a mirror relation..it is easy to understand why I would think that)

So to help, I would suggest spending time with others..reflect on the intertype relationships with the others, and indeed report back here with your new, and other insights. I do hope that you find a type which you can therefore feel you can identify with. (And it will happen, I will say)

So yes, practicality is something I can be good at, so I ask, .. Is this useful?
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