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  #1  
Old 24/05/2008, 02:14 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Default Them Sub-Types!

Hey!

Well, um, here some initial random thoughts-questions: ?!

Would a sub type have an influence on intertype relations?

Would a sub type depend on an actual preference ie. Someone in their job may use their auxillary function more but revert to their base function preference at the weekend or on their days off, away from work?

If subtypes change, and if subtypes can have have an influence on intertype relations, if the subtype changed, then socionically a person may no longer be as good a match for you (or may be better)

And on that..can knowledge affect subtypes (in some cases at least)? Take say, ENTp: It seems for instance, that Ne makes connections between things to produce something new, so the more a person knows, the more connections they can make, then the more of an Ne subtype they would be? And the less knowledge they've taken on recently..could therefore be balanced or even a Ti subtype because the emphasis could be on understanding and classifying/structuring what they already know?

Anyone got any thoughts on these or other ideas?

Cheers!

Last edited by Cyclops; 24/05/2008 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 24/05/2008, 03:22 PM
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Of course subtype matters.
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Old 24/05/2008, 03:54 PM
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I'm not sure if sub types are mainly set in stone in terms of the functional preference, like the order of the functions pretty much is. I would say personally, in my late teens, if I were to choose, i'd be more of an Si subtype, although I would say for last couple of years I would probably be more of a Te sub type.

I think I can see why in theory someone couldn't be a sub type for more than 2 functions ..for instance I cannot prefer N but still use S, it's got to be one or the other, not simultaneously?

I realise I'm just putting down some ideas just now more than anything, which probably isn't much use, but it's helping me to think more - I think aha.
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Old 27/05/2008, 07:12 AM
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Thumbs up yes to subtypes

yes there are subtypes, but the model to show them hasn'nt evolved enuf just yet. you always have to stick with the simplest model possible to minimize backtracking.

subtypes do have an influence on intertype relations, but not enough that we should make too much of a deal about it.

its like knowing you should get back 1.52 from a cashier....if u get back a 1.27 this one day its not as if complete chaos breaks out.
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Old 27/05/2008, 05:01 PM
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I would think that subtypes would apply more to intrapersonal realm than to the interpersonal. Just a shot in the dark, but I would think that subtypes would matter in decisions for things like career satisfaction. Not so much with relationships. No one is going to be perfection. Not even if you could boil it down to the closest probabilities in compatibility. People aren't that static.
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Old 27/05/2008, 05:30 PM
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I know nothing about subtypes, give me a reference where I can find some information about it.
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Old 27/05/2008, 06:17 PM
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What is interesting is theory is something like this...

I knew a guy who was an ENTP. He was a teacher. When he would get behind and decide to kick things into gear... IE had a mission and had to get something done, he would get abrupt, less thoughtful, completely driven by the goal. It wasn't his natural tendency. It would stress him out if it was like that for too long. He was good to go when it was in bursts of deadlines looming, but to live in a constant structure that had no room for flexibility would make him irritable.

I could tell when he had gotten himself in over his head and needed a break. He's start to act like a different type, but he was at his best when he had that room to play with possibilities, leading his students through thought clusters and showing them how he was connecting theories based on similarities. When he was rushed he would just put the information out there leaving cliff hangers all over the place. The class would get to where they needed to be, but I would be willing to bet that they the majority of students suffered from a little harder with grappling to make those connections themselves outside of class. If they bothered at all.

Did the appearance of his type change, only superficially. If you knew him well you could read what was happening.

I don't know if most people do this or not, but you gather a person's baseline after knowing them for a while. Then, when you see something outside the norm you stop and wonder why something has changed. If you look further it is usually a good indicator that something isn't being said and you need to pay attention to silent clues. Contradictions in behavior are usually very telling and say more than words sometimes.
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Old 28/05/2008, 06:06 AM
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Default yup

--------- Contradictions in behavior are usually very telling and say more than words sometimes.
....spoken like a true INFj, lol
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Old 28/05/2008, 08:56 AM
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To summarise on this, i'm leaning towards (I believe) Megeds theory, that emphasis on sub type could make us more like our comparative and look a likes.

Why? Well.. Example--

For instance. Take ISTp. An emphasis on dominant Si.,what other type has a dominant Si? ISFp-so more like ISFp. An emphasis on creative Te, what other type has creative Te? INTp-so a little more like INTp.

Which isn't fully why I think this but one can the sort of see effect this would have on a person..and I think could also have an impact on some intertype relations (for instance a creative subtype could therefore make illusionary relations seem more attractive - at least at first, and maybe for a while after too of course.)

So yes and no for impact at times I would say. Um..this approach *seems* to make sense to me.
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Old 29/05/2008, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Hey!

Would a sub type have an influence on intertype relations?

Cheers!
I think thats the only reason they exist : to blend the system in more so that it doesn't remain too rigid.

My dad is living proof that subtypes have an influence on intertype relations? an ENFp should be able to get along with an ESTj and there are lots that i do with but there nevertheless are others that i don't....... perhaps if we call those other ESTj's by way of superimposing logic....... an ISTj then its obvious why i dont get along well with my dad, (never have....for no particular reason whatsoever other than psychological).......its by nature a conflicting relationship.........but how do you explain this contrast/ extinguishment switch i just pulled off........there is a way but you start getting into subtypes.

So i think that some subtypes do but some dont.......(i use the term loosely here for subtypes as an unorthodox thing)

Of course may not be the enfp i think i am and might be an infp but then that would only create other more substantial problems as i dont think that the estp is my dual but more of a superego.....thus intertyping is important as well as quadras to be able to see all the trees in the forrest.
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Old 29/05/2008, 05:30 AM
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Here are the ideal subtype matchups for intertype relationships:

Ti matched with Fe
Te matched with Fi
Si matched with Ne
Se matched with Ni


See my graphs and the subloops below them to see how subtypes link one type to its comparative and look-a-like.

http://www.socionics.com/forums/show...=9379#post9379

subtype's affect on intertype relationships could make someone besides your conventional dual a more ideal match. For example

ENFp-Ne would may have problems if matched with an ISTp-Te because the subtypes don't line up. The ENFp-Ne may be better matched with an ESTj-Si or ISFp-Si because in these scenarios, the subtype lines up. Ideally, the ENFp-Ne would find an ISTp-Si.
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Last edited by RSV3; 29/05/2008 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #12  
Old 29/05/2008, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
For example

ENFp-Ne would may have problems if matched with an ISTp-Te because the subtypes don't line up. The ENFp-Ne may be better matched with an ESTj-Si or ISFp-Si because in these scenarios, the subtype lines up. Ideally, the ENFp-Ne would find an ISTp-Si.

You make a very good point here...one that gets me personally....i can see that ur not a rookie.

I have considered a lot of these scenarios to try to come up with the propper allignment for th ewhole thing...

I have made such discoveries too in the real world, i dont go out looking for em it just hits you here n there...... an ISTp with a Te lead function would still be a favourable situation but there would definitely be room for improvement. Ne is always seeking Si to watch over its vulnerabilities in its decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
Here are the ideal subtype matchups for intertype relationships:

Ti matched with Fe
Te matched with Fi
Si matched with Ne
Se matched with Ni


See my graphs and the subloops below them to see how subtypes link one type to its comparative and look-a-like.

http://www.socionics.com/forums/show...=9379#post9379

subtype's affect on intertype relationships could make someone besides your conventional dual a more ideal match. For example

ENFp-Ne would may have problems if matched with an ISTp-Te because the subtypes don't line up. The ENFp-Ne may be better matched with an ESTj-Si or ISFp-Si because in these scenarios, the subtype lines up. Ideally, the ENFp-Ne would find an ISTp-Si.

itseems that the orthodox concepts for subtypes here start with and end with comparative and lookalike. I understand these choices in regards to the dominant and auxiliary but what logic keeps you from taking it a step further ? the best model is the simplest one but then again what keeps the theory stuck only on these two and thus other probable patterns not explored ? What do thes two have going for em ?

Last edited by kensi; 29/05/2008 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #13  
Old 29/05/2008, 06:15 AM
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There are only two conventional subtypes, the leading (accepting) subtype and the creative (producing) subtype. If you are really an ENFp, then you may have either a leading subtype (Ne) or a creative subtype (Fi). As you can see, these two subtypes are taken from your ego block. It doesn't make sense to expand subtypes to the super ego functions because there is almost no chance that these functions are the preferred function of a person (it flys against socionics theory to suggest that a person would prefer one of their super ego functions over an ego function). Thus there are only two conventional subtypes.

A person's subtype is determined by finding out whether the person focuses more on their leading or creative function.

If you don't know your subtype, there are a couple easy ways to do it. First, and the one I recommend, is to ask yourself whether you relate more to your comparative or look-a-like. A second way is to consider the function you value most in a partner (e.g., if you value someone with Si the most, you likely have an Ne subtype). Hope that helps clarify things.
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Old 29/05/2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
There are only two conventional subtypes, the leading (accepting) subtype and the creative (producing) subtype. If you are really an ENFp, then you may have either a leading subtype (Ne) or a creative subtype (Fi). As you can see, these two subtypes are taken from your ego block. It doesn't make sense to expand subtypes to the super ego functions because there is almost no chance that these functions are the preferred function of a person (it flys against socionics theory to suggest that a person would prefer one of their super ego functions over an ego function). Thus there are only two conventional subtypes.

A person's subtype is determined by finding out whether the person focuses more on their leading or creative function.

If you don't know your subtype, there are a couple easy ways to do it. First, and the one I recommend, is to ask yourself whether you relate more to your comparative or look-a-like. A second way is to consider the function you value most in a partner (e.g., if you value someone with Si the most, you likely have an Ne subtype). Hope that helps clarify things.
I think my dominant is Ne cause i have an Si preference in a partner (at least i think i do)............but does this mean that i'm either a split enfp/ entp....or... a split enfp/ esfp. Personally i've always thought of myself as more entp leaning.
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Old 29/05/2008, 06:41 AM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kensi View Post
I think my dominant is Ne cause i have an Si preference in a partner (at least i think i do)............but does this mean that i'm either a split enfp/ entp....or... a split enfp/ esfp. Personally i've always thought of myself as more entp leaning.
Finding your type is much more important than finding your subtype.
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Old 29/05/2008, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
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Finding your type is much more important than finding your subtype.

but the only reason one really has to look for a subype is to verify their base type. If all of a sudden your subtype doesn't make sense then your base type may very well be wrong based on the limitedness of options presented by the subtype.
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Old 29/05/2008, 07:17 AM
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but the only reason one really has to look for a subype is to verify their base type. If all of a sudden your subtype doesn't make sense then your base type may very well be wrong based on the limitedness of options presented by the subtype.
This is an example of muddled thinking. You do not look for a sub type to verify your base type. How on earth would you know your sub type doesn't make sense if you are unaware of your base type. I don't think you are being serious here.
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Old 29/05/2008, 07:30 AM
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Finding your type is much more important than finding your subtype.
Absolutely.
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Old 29/05/2008, 07:58 AM
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How on earth would you know your sub type doesn't make sense if you are unaware of your base type.
sorry but if anybody's thinking is muddled its yours.....i never said that...time n time again u seem to not understand the involvement of time in an issue...

I never said that i'm not aware of my base type n then i go out looking for my sub type.....
How can i make this anymore clearer?.....

review this below n if you don't get it....god help u cause i sure cant....lol
1. Your base type is always the first thing to be determined based on all the available orthodox (and not unorthodox) information you have. You don't even look at subtypes unless they form part of the main theory that goes along with the basetypes. The base types are more important by far at this stage.

2. Having realized that the base types do not suffice in providing a propper explanation of the systematic issues....we turn to subtypes...at this very stage the subtypes become more important cause they hold the key to unlocking certainty.

3.Only if you understand all the possible subtypes for each base type can you reassess where you stand ........cause for example you may have thought that ur INFp but having taken into consideration a subtype theory (regardless ofwhat it is), you may end up having shifted yourself over to actually be say an INTp. So at this stage of the game the Subtypes control your destiny. (there may be 6 or 7 plausible subtype theories each one with its own consequences)



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Old 29/05/2008, 03:03 PM
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sorry but if anybody's thinking is muddled its yours.....i never said that...time n time again u seem to not understand the involvement of time in an issue...

I never said that i'm not aware of my base type n then i go out looking for my sub type....
You said the only reason one look for their sub type is to verify their base type. This is clearly incorrect and shows that you do not understand socionics or the types, and is the sort of thing that probably contributes to you not knowing your own type, and producing all sorts of crack pot theories to explain your lack of comprehension. Anything you say in regards to socionics should be treated with suspicion, and I will do so.

Quote:
How can i make this anymore clearer?.....

review this below n if you don't get it....god help u cause i sure cant....lol
1. Your base type is always the first thing to be determined based on all the available orthodox (and not unorthodox) information you have. You don't even look at subtypes unless they form part of the main theory that goes along with the basetypes. The base types are more important by far at this stage.

2. Having realized that the base types do not suffice in providing a propper explanation of the systematic issues....we turn to subtypes...at this very stage the subtypes become more important cause they hold the key to unlocking certainty.

3.Only if you understand all the possible subtypes for each base type can you reassess where you stand ........cause for example you may have thought that ur INFp but having taken into consideration a subtype theory (regardless ofwhat it is), you may end up having shifted yourself over to actually be say an INTp. So at this stage of the game the Subtypes control your destiny. (there may be 6 or 7 plausible subtype theories each one with its own consequences)



You prove my point.

You do not understand.

Last edited by Cyclops; 29/05/2008 at 03:10 PM.
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