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  #41  
Old 25/10/2008, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanerou View Post
I think the problem Cyclops is addressing is when one gets too bogged down in contemplating and forgets to do.
That is right! There is a place for action. And isn't thinking, feeling, experiencing and understanding a way of acting?
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  #42  
Old 25/10/2008, 03:11 AM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
(Ecclesiastes 1:14) 'I saw all the works that were done under the sun, and,look! Everything was vanity and a striving after the wind'.
Yuack! Everything else was not alright though.

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Which can be seen, in one possible interpretation, as a rather clear example of the Ni reluctance to explain things. You rather have to see what it means, since it can't be explained in words. That is Ni in essence. The same attitude (reluctance to explain things in words) can be seen in for example Wittgenstein. And a lot of poets would say similar things. They write poems because they cannot say what they want to say in any other way. A very clear example of what I am talking about is the Swedish poet Bruno K. Öijer, who is a romantic poet in the surrealist tradition also influenced by the Beat movement. Most socionists (though they might perhaps be wrong) would immediately type Öijer as Ni leading, since he is manifesting almost all of the most typical signs of Ni described in the socionic literature.
So why didn't you draw a picture in order to explain instead?

Sounds like Ni is a subjective objective-wannabe. -1 x +1 = -1

and in terms of the score you know know very well what I mean by that minus sign just up there...

BTW
Wittgenstein starts from his own simple axioms. Ehh...

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
The book The End of Time by the physicist and philosopher Julian Barbour is probably much better. I can recommend it. Enjoy!
Beautiful.

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Be happy -- as long as you can. Soon the shadows will be drawing near, and you will hear a call from the wall in your bedroom. Getting stoned will not save you then. It will not be the solution ...
Simply beautiful. Loads and loads of Te-crystalline Ni there. What's the problem with talking like this all the time?

Last edited by Vibration; 25/10/2008 at 03:13 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #43  
Old 25/10/2008, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanerou View Post
I see. The term "Ego" is also used in Socionics, so you may want to be careful how you use it, lest the meaning be misinterpreted. Anyway...so basically, you're referring to recognizing one's place in the cosmic whole, right?
Right! To find the 'true self'...to understand it...
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  #44  
Old 25/10/2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
How do you know what you see isn't the illusion?
Illusion is reality to the one who sees it, but is this illusion true reality?
It is possible to see illusion for what it truly is by steping back in our minds and analise this same illusion: toughts, feelings, experiences, etc. objectively...deconstructing it...and by this way to became aware of it as not being true reality: insight!

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Explain your enlightenment?
I woudn't risk to say that I'm enlightened...to identify with such tought it would be to risck seeing illusion as being reality...I wold say: "I think I'm understanding it..."

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How do you measure your insight against that of others?
Insight is a deep understanding...and it's a personal thing!
How can I compare my insight...my 'understanding' with your insight...your 'understanding'?
How can I measure it? We can compare knowledge but not insight!
Someone can point the way to insight or deep 'uderstanding' of smething but it's we who have to walk! To experience insight is like to experience thinking or feeling...we can not compare the experiencing of it....it's a personal thing...

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Originally Posted by king View Post
How do you measure your insight against that of others?
Insight is a deep understanding...and it's a personal thing!
How can I compare my insight...my 'understanding' with your insight...your 'understanding'?
How can I measure it? We can compare knowledge but not insight!
Someone can point the way to insight or deep 'uderstanding' of smething but it's we who have to walk! To experience insight is like to experience thinking or feeling...we can not compare the experiencing of it....it's a personal thing...

Last edited by darkspirit1978; 25/10/2008 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #45  
Old 25/10/2008, 08:29 PM
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So why didn't you draw a picture in order to explain instead?
Because drawing a picture is the Ne way of doing it. That's your job.

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Originally Posted by Vibration
BTW
Wittgenstein starts from his own simple axioms. Ehh...
No, actually not. Like me, Wittgenstein started at the other end. He tried to find the ulitimate axioms that would explain what he could observe. That's the top-down approach, and the more you think of it, the more you really study Wittgenstein, the more you realize that he probably must have been an INTp.

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Originally Posted by Vibration
Simply beautiful. Loads and loads of Te-crystalline Ni there. What's the problem with talking like this all the time?
The problem is that most people don't take you seriously, they don't understand what you are talking about, and they see you as a mystic at best, or a lunatic. But since people don't take me seriously and don't understand me anyway, I might as well start to talk a lot more like that in the future.
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  #46  
Old 25/10/2008, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Because drawing a picture is the Ne way of doing it. That's your job.


No, actually not. Like me, Wittgenstein started at the other end. He tried to find the ulitimate axioms that would explain what he could observe. That's the top-down approach, and the more you think of it, the more you really study Wittgenstein, the more you realize that he probably must have been an INTp.


The problem is that most people don't take you seriously, they don't understand what you are talking about, and they see you as a mystic at best, or a lunatic. But since people don't take me seriously and don't understand me anyway, I might as well start to talk a lot more like that in the future.
Cool. It is easy to be clear and simple to be cloudy. But some friends like clouds and dreams and skies.
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  #47  
Old 25/10/2008, 10:46 PM
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Cool. It is easy to be clear and simple to be cloudy. But some friends like clouds and dreams and skies.
Not to mention mountains and childhoods and leaves and raindrops and dark green groves.
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  #48  
Old 26/10/2008, 12:27 AM
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Not to mention mountains and childhoods and leaves and raindrops and dark green groves.
and the clear water flushing veins bringing life to every single cell
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  #49  
Old 27/10/2008, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
No, actually not. Like me, Wittgenstein started at the other end. He tried to find the ulitimate axioms that would explain what he could observe. That's the top-down approach, and the more you think of it, the more you really study Wittgenstein, the more you realize that he probably must have been an INTp.
But that is how I think!!! I can read Wittgenstein easily!!!! What about you?


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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
The problem is that most people don't take you seriously, they don't understand what you are talking about, and they see you as a mystic at best, or a lunatic.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Hey did you just try to 6 me up? Fe doesn't doesn't make me move.

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But since people don't take me seriously and don't understand me anyway, I might as well start to talk a lot more like that in the future.
You are so much like me! We are just like Wittgenstein!
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  #50  
Old 27/10/2008, 10:39 AM
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But that is how I think!!! I can read Wittgenstein easily!!!! What about you?
Many people can read Wittgenstein easily. Very few can understand him correctly.

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Originally Posted by Vibration
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. Beuaty is in the objects themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vibration
Hey did you just try to 6 me up? Fe doesn't doesn't make me move.
I didn't try anything except telling you what I think is the truth.

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Originally Posted by Vibration
You are so much like me! We are just like Wittgenstein!
I am very much like Wittgenstein. You are much more like Einstein.
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  #51  
Old 28/10/2008, 10:09 AM
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Default because it's 3 in the morning....

I am consciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence...

You are consciousness embodied into a form that allows it be aware that it exists. Or maybe you are a person who....... *damn just had a massive brain fart*

I am not my knowledge...I am 'knowing'...
I am not my thoughts...I am 'thinking'...
I am not my experiences...
I am 'experiencing'...

You are not an accumulation of things, but rather the accumulator.

Who I really am it's not a personality type...it's much deeper than that...

You are more than what you appear to be. Your essence cannot be fully captured in a box or with a label.

Who I really am it's being...it's stillness (it's that thing that I am deep inside that it's unchangeable).

I'm not sure if I agree with this. Isn't the point of stillness, emptiness, "being", etc, to be changeable? Like a still empty vessel which can be filled with one thing, then emptied and filled with another. But perhaps you mean the vessel (you) itself never changes?

Who I really am It's counsciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence.

*still farting*

Personality it's a way of being...
Not 'being' itself!


Personality is merely a channel through which your inner being is manifested into reality. It is not the act of being, but a conductor of the act.

Each man is an universe in progress! Thinking, constructing, deconstructing, experiencing, feeling and understanding!

I agree. I have had that thought many times...
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  #52  
Old 28/10/2008, 10:44 AM
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Where did all the poets come from? Have all socionists gone west?
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  #53  
Old 29/10/2008, 10:51 PM
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Does this mean you are S?
No it doesn't, it simply means I am not Fi valuing.
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β ST, E6 autopreservation.
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  #54  
Old 31/10/2008, 11:17 AM
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Cool

I am consciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence...

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Originally Posted by nahbee1235 View Post
You are consciousness embodied into a form that allows it to be aware that it exists. Or maybe you are a person who....... *damn just had a massive brain fart*


Well, orrect me if I'm wrong: I'm cousciousness embodied into a form, but the form it takes is in a sense an illusion...it changes, while cousciousness and 'the sense of self' remains unchangeable.

Who I really am It's counsciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence.

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Originally Posted by nahbee1235 View Post
*still farting*


How? Why?

Please explain...

Please don't hit me...I'm not worthy...
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INTj or INTp (eneagram - type 5) :

Please, don't hit me...I'm not worthy...

Last edited by darkspirit1978; 31/10/2008 at 11:22 AM.
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  #55  
Old 31/10/2008, 03:03 PM
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What is the difference between conciousness and unconciousness? Considering the body still exists when the conciousness of it does not, the conciousness is just a part of the body. In essence the conciousness and the free will of choice is the illusion.

Now if you think this makes the whole to be greater than the sum of it's parts, maybe.
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  #56  
Old 31/10/2008, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
What is the difference between conciousness and unconciousness? Considering the body still exists when the conciousness of it does not, the conciousness is just a part of the body.


Well...it's part of the body...but it's not the body!

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
In essence the conciousness and the free will of choice is the illusion.


Are you saying that consciousness and free will is the illusion or that consciousness is the essence and the illusion is what we perceive to be free will?

Please clarify!

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Now if you think this makes the whole to be greater than the sum of it's parts, maybe.
I never said we were not in part fisical only that what we truly are is unchangeable, like water in it's liquid state: as long as it is in it's liquid state, it can take any shape, but it's true nature, it's true essence, remains unchangeable.
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  #57  
Old 31/10/2008, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post


Well...it's part of the body...but it's not the body!

No body no conciousness. Body without conciousness, body still exists. Like being hit over the head hard or in a deep sleep.

Quote:
Are you saying that consciousness and free will is the illusion or that consciousness is the essence and the illusion is what we perceive to be free will?

Please clarify!
Free will is an illusion. Conciousness is a way to process your awareness of the outer world via vision touch taste but not essential.
Quote:
I never said we were not in part fisical only that what we truly are is unchangeable, like water in it's liquid state: as long as it is in it's liquid state, it can take any shape, but it's true nature, it's true essence, remains unchangeable.
Perform a lobotomy and do you have a different person. It is the same body. I'm not sure how your analogy of water has anything to do with it. Everything is in essence the same if you analyse it at some sub atomic level. Hence are whole greater than sum of parts?
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  #58  
Old 01/11/2008, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Where did all the poets come from? Have all socionists gone west?
Come on, I can defend anyone I want to defend and righteously so and much better than you.

Don't you understand that everyone needs a reference point in life?? We need an internal reference or an external reference.

It might be internal or might be external (internal in your case obviously) but without a reference point we must go mad, because everything is shifting, no focus in life anymore!!!!!!!!

So it's actually perfectly ok to believe in anything you want to believe in because EVERYONE needs a point of reference. And who are you to tell anyone what their their best reference point in life might be, being introverted or extroverted? The theory obviously implicates everyone is
unique and so everyone can choose as they want. No? At least that's my interpretation.

I don't care what people belive in (everyone belives in certain things and as long it makes them happy I am satisfied) AND anyone that tries to force their theory onto me (me unwillingly) will cause me to CRASH THEIR COMPANY (eternally that is... Whooooooo Scaryyyyyyyyyyyy).
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Last edited by Obama; 01/11/2008 at 04:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #59  
Old 01/11/2008, 06:08 AM
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I am consciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nahbee1235
You are consciousness embodied into a form that allows it to be aware that it exists. Or maybe you are a person who....... *damn just had a massive brain fart*



Well, orrect me if I'm wrong: I'm cousciousness embodied into a form, but the form it takes is in a sense an illusion...it changes, while cousciousness and 'the sense of self' remains unchangeable.

Who I really am It's counsciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nahbee1235
*still farting*



How? Why?

Please explain...

Please don't hit me...I'm not worthy...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i suppose you could be correct in that the form is merely an illusion. if that is by consciousness you mean the consciousness of everything. universal consciousness that is channeled into different forms. yes that is it!!!


(brain fart: (from wiktionary.org)
  1. (idiomatic, US, informal) A lapse in the thought process; an inability to think or remember something clearly.)
I couldn't quite explain my thoughts as it was veeery early in the morning (like 3 am), hence the brain farting...

BTW: Ha, ha, ha no one is EVER worthy!!!
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  #60  
Old 07/11/2008, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
No body no conciousness. Body without conciousness, body still exists. Like being hit over the head hard or in a deep sleep.
It's truth that the physical part without consciousness still exists but are we that physical structure?

What we truly are is consciousness and if we die even knowing that the physical part still exists what we tuly are is no more...

without consciousness the physycal structure means nothing !

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Free will is an illusion.
It's an interesting point of view...

I think in part we are the cause not the effect...in part we are the power that predetermines the course of events.

I don't think the course of events can be considered as something completely beyond human power or control...

still...we are influenced by the law of cause and effect.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Conciousness is a way to process your awareness of the outer world via vision touch taste but not essential.
Not essential?!

Only if we are interested in becoming zombies or applying to work as puppets!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Perform a lobotomy and do you have a different person. It is the same body. I'm not sure how your analogy of water has anything to do with it. Everything is in essence the same if you analyse it at some sub atomic level. Hence are whole greater than sum of parts?
Yes, It's true!

We can be affected by changes on our fisical structure...

We are consciousness trapped in matter and we are in part physical.

Still I think that who we truly are is consciousness aware of itself, consciousness aware of it's own existence: It might be affected by changes on it's physical structure but in its essence it remains unchangeable...

I could break a leg or even lose it, but this change on my physical stucture woudn't change consciousness...my true self...

It wouldn't change my true essence!
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