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  #21  
Old 22/02/2006, 06:19 AM
j-kan j-kan is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

some more things on myself. hopefully, they'll show a better picture of my thinking process.

1) i can analyse things okay. i actually like to use theories or equations to explain data and other things. however, i have almost a 100% chance of making errors in the process of preparing the data i need. of course, GIGO, so that's quite a problem for me at work.

2) i feel compelled to explain the logic/reasons behind my statements/questions. most of the time, i think people are not explaining themselves well enough but i've met with people who were probably just like me, explaining everything and i foundd them quite annoying to be honest. double standard, i know. i'm trying to fix that.

3) whenver i have to explain something, i usually just explain it as briefly as possible and then back it with an example. i can't quite just get the concept out. and i like to apply theories i have learnt in a subject in many different areas. like if i'm asked if i can put up with something not too pleasant and i answered 'maybe not in the long run, but it's okay for the short run.' something like that.

4) when i learn, i must grasp the concept before i can be expected to work out the problems. i mean i can't do rote memorization. i HATE and SUCK big time in taxation. lastly, i learn by going through examples. i'm not very good at the proof stuffs.

5) there's a huge ego problem wtih me. i hate to admit that i suck at something. there's one job that i suck at. i was jealous of those that are good at it. and i wouldn't openly acknowledge that i suck at it. i coudn't stand myself being a mediocre staff so i quit the job. and, i'm quite stingy on praises. i have a immense fear of defeat. there are only a few friends that i will open my heart to. and they're all overseas, which is good coz usually physical distance for me is inversely proportional to psychological distance.


so SG, do you think i'm an E or I NTp? or something else? the only reason why i think i'm not a T is my inability to connect with people in a meaningful way. and i can't possibly be an S coz both my and functions are very poor. not handy, not agile, forgetful, absent-minded.
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  #22  
Old 22/02/2006, 06:35 AM
niveK niveK is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

Dude, you're totally ILI/INTp. I can explain the reasons relating to the new points as well, but I'm feeling a little lazy at the moment. If you really want me to, I can detail it further for you.
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  #23  
Old 22/02/2006, 10:33 AM
j-kan j-kan is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

@niveK, if it's not too much trouble, please!
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  #24  
Old 22/02/2006, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Prom,

I vote you INTp.

Sometimes your logic seems overeaching and propped up. Extraneous. A vassel for your intuition not king of the hill.
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  #25  
Old 22/02/2006, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

I have mostly compared descriptions, comments on descriptions and articles discussing descriptions, models and so on. I don’t think I can make the foundation unshakeable – at least not yet – and one reason why is the “method” I use. Here’s a description of that “method”:
http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Thinking.

Maybe this is a description of introverted thinking, maybe it’s a description of introverted thinking + extraverted intuition, maybe it’s a description of something else, and maybe some parts of it are bullshit. But especially “Proposed definition #1” and “High-bandwidth understanding” has got something right, and kind of describe pretty well how I am constantly trying to find out how the pieces fit together to form a logical whole.

One consequence of that “method” is that I always experience great difficulty backing up my conclusions with exact, empirical data, because I tend to forget where I got the information from in the first place. I also tend to forget the details, since I’m much more interested in reaching general conclusions. Usually I scan and analyse huge amounts of material in the process. The process itself, in which I’m trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together, often take years. Which of you INTps and/or INTjs are similar to me in thinking that way? Maybe there is a pattern to be discovered here ...

Here are some descriptions of MBTI ISTJs that I’ve used:
http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ.html
http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTJ.htm
http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/istj.htm

I really cant’ say which one them is the most accurate, and I have long ago lost count of how many such descriptions I’ve read. Here I’ve picked some that I think are not among the worst anyway, and they all together create an image of what kind of type they are trying to describe. And if you focus on the overall picture, I think they are pretty much saying the same thing.

Here are some descriptions of socionics ISTjs that I’ve compared them with:
http://www.socionics.com/prof/istj.htm
http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/istj.htm
http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&type=14
http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index-type.html

Here are a few, short comments on the relation between the two models:
http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index-type.html

More material commenting/discussing socionics or MBTI in general and the relations between the two models is to be found at:
http://www.socioniko.net/

I admit that there is a lot of material out there that I haven’t analysed, partly because there is so much crap you have to sort out before you can get to the interesting stuff. But that’s no excuse, of course.

When I discovered some time ago that both socionics and MBTI are describing very similar types when they describe ISTJs/ISTJs and ISFJ/ISFjs and probably when it comes to ISFPs/ISFps and ISTPs/ISTps as well (but I’m somewhat more unsure about the last two groups) it made me curious. Sometimes you come across the idea that the two systems are twisted around the J/P dichotomy so you will get ROUGHLY the socionics type if you switch the J to P and the P to J in the introverted MBTI types, and the other way around. Now that seemed to be incorrect for the S-types. But for the N-types it was NOT that “simple” for some (other?) mysterious reason, and the “twisting theory” was more likely in that case.

Later I found that at least one socionics expert had reached the same conclusion, but now I can’t find the source of that. As I can remember it, he presented the idea as common knowledge among socionics practitioners/theoreticians, but I might have got that wrong.

When I was out on the Internet today, searching for material I have used to reach my conclusions, I, by accident, came across this topic:
http://similarminds.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=164

I haven’t read it yet, only passed through the first posts. But maybe some of you would like to compare these opinions on the differences between INTPs and INTJs with your own conceptions of the differences between socionics INTps and INTjs.

It would also be interesting to know what you think about David Keirsey’s socionics type: http://keirsey.com/DWK.html

Does he look like an INTj or an INTp? I can’t imagine that he and I are different types, and according to his own model he is an INTP like me.

Another well-known example of an INTP is Tobey Maguire, who not only is playing an INTP in films like Spider Man and Wonder Boys, but he also seems to be a real-life INTP. He also looks like those INTPs I personally know of, but does he look like an INTp or an INTj? And what do you think of the personalities of his film characters?
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  #26  
Old 22/02/2006, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Well, thanks Prometheus. I am pretty sure we can conclude this argument because there was no argument to start with. The type profiles you call MBTI are anything but MBTI. You know diddly-squat about MBTI and thanks for sharing it. Maybe if you would do your homework properly, once in a while, you could at least stop wasting yours or anybody else's time on your groundless arguments.
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  #27  
Old 22/02/2006, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Thanks for your reply, Cancel. It would be great step forward if I could be certain that I'm not an INTj. Your way of putting it, that INTjs "cut away most of the fat before actually discussing, and stating opinions on things" reminds me of one thing Paul James says in his long description of INTPs at http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html: "In contrast to INTJs, an INTP will often make controversial, speculative points of argument, often annoying the discussion-partner, and make them in such a way as to leave the impression that he is very serious about what he says ...The INTJ, on the other hand, with Ni dominant and Te as secondary, tends to avoid letting uncertain speculative ideas out in the open: he presents a more considered structured viewpoint to the world while holding his private thoughts free for intuitive reasoning."

Personally I don't trust the MBTI tests (or any other test) very much. At most they give you an indication of a person's type. I prefer the analytical method, described on this site, in combination with the visual method. In that process I compare and analyze the information inputs with everything I know of each type, based on type descriptions, statistics on behaviour patterns, and so on. Using the visual method I'm not only looking at a person's face, but also at which body type that person (roughly) belongs to. INTJs (Sorry for introducing that MBTI type again) tend to be more leptosomic than any other type, except for INFJs maybe. If you know which socionics types are the most leptosomic, then maybe we could say something about how they correlate with the MBTI types.

I've read about those socionics experts and their type matching (but I don't remember exactly when and where). It was interesting but I don't know what to do with it. I don't agree that it showed that the two models are not comparable, however. Of course you can compare them - that is exactly what they did - and if you find that the types don't correlate in any simple, direct way, that doesn't show they don't correlate in a more complex way.

Just one more thing, Cancel. You also seem to have missed one of my main points. I'm not primarily interested in comparing the two models, or, okay in a way I am, but that comes later. My first priority is to find out which TYPES in the sense "groups of people" they are talking about. And a "type" in that sense is not a theoretical construction, but something very concrete, consisting of flesh and blood. Where do they draw the line between different groups of people? Would they end up having the same people in a certain group, or would some of the members of that group, defined by one theory, belong to a different group, defined by another theory? How much, and in exactly what way, do they overlap? That's more of an empirical question than a theoretical one, don't you think?
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  #28  
Old 22/02/2006, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Sorry, Cancel. Now I see that you wrote "compatable" (meaning compatible, I suppose) instead of "comparable".

I agree. They are not compatible, and I want to know why and in which way they are not. And to find that out I have to compare them.
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  #29  
Old 22/02/2006, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Yo Prometheus, here is one of your "MBTI" profiles I have filtered the crap out of it and split it for fun to show you which part is relevant to which type. Now I dare you to tell me to which Socionics Type it corresponds...

Quote:
Portrait of an ISTP - Introverted Sensing Thinking Perceiving
(Introverted Thinking with Extraverted Sensing)

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTP.html

The bit, which is relevant to :

As an ISTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in via your five senses in a literal, concrete fashion. ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. They're good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although they're not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They like to take things apart and see the way they work. ISTPs are loyal to their causes and beliefs, and are firm believers that people should be treated with equity and fairness. ISTPs are extremely loyal and faithful to their "brothers".

The bit, which is relevant to :

ISTPs have an adventuresome spirit. They are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing, etc. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to "do their own thing". Their sense of adventure and desire for constant action makes ISTPs prone to becoming bored rather quickly. Although they do not respect the rules of the "System", they follow their own rules and guidelines for behavior faithfully. They will not take part in something which violates their personal laws. They are not people to sit behind a desk all day and do long-range planning. Adaptable and spontaneous, they respond to what is immediately before them. ISTPs are excellent in a crisis situations. They're usually good athletes, and have very good hand-eye coordination. They are good at following through with a project, and tying up loose ends. They usually don't have much trouble with school, because they are introverts who can think logically.

The bit, which is relevant to either both types, some other types, many other types or not relevant at all, basically :

ISTPs like and need to spend time alone, because this is when they can sort things out in their minds most clearly. They absorb large quantities of impersonal facts from the external world, and sort through those facts, making judgments, when they are alone. ISTPs are action-oriented people. They like to be up and about, doing things. They usually have strong technical skills, and can be effective technical leaders. They focus on details and practical things. They have an excellent sense of expediency and grasp of the details which enables them to make quick, effective decisions. ISTPs avoid making judgments based on personal values - they feel that judgments and decisions should be made impartially, based on the fact. They are not naturally tuned in to how they are affecting others. They do not pay attention to their own feelings, and even distrust them and try to ignore them, because they have difficulty distinguishing between emotional reactions and value judgments. This may be a problem area for many ISTPs. An ISTP who is over-stressed may exhibit rash emotional outbursts of anger, or on the other extreme may be overwhelmed by emotions and feelings which they feel compelled to share with people (often inappropriately). An ISTP who is down on themself will foray into the world of value judgments - a place which is not natural for the ISTP - and judge themself by their inability to perform some task. They will then approach the task in a grim emotional state, expecting the worst. They are usually patient individuals, although they may be prone to occasional emotional outbursts due to their inattention to their own feelings. ISTPs have a lot of natural ability which makes them good at many different kinds of things. However, they are happiest when they are centered in action-oriented tasks which require detailed logical analysis and technical skill. They take pride in their ability to take the next correct step. ISTPs are optimistic, full of good cheer, loyal to their equals, uncomplicated in their desires, generous, trusting and receptive people who want no part in confining commitments.
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  #30  
Old 23/02/2006, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Yo SG, if you skip the first two, theoretical, sentences in the first part, you will find that both parts show rather striking similarities with Cameron Yule's description of "The Mysterious ISTp" and Jacob R. Zemon's description of "The Enigmatic ISTp", both from Reuben McNew's site - even if you include your "bullshit" section. I don't know if both these descriptions are still available to read, but once they were.

Of course you can always find bits that are not unique only to one type. But if you, for example, compare the "MBTI" profiles of ISTPs and ISTJs with the socionics profiles of ISTps and ISTjs found at Reuben McNews site, you will find that both the ISTP and the ISTp clearly belong to the Artisan temperament group, described by David Keirsey, and that both the ISTJ and the ISTj belong to his Guardian temperament group.

I think it might be possible to find details in both the MBTI description and in the two socionics descriptions that are questionable, false or even contradictory. One example is the last sentence of the second part of the MBTI profile, which is misleading, to say the least, when viewed in the light of some empirical studies. (Please don't take offense, ISTps - it's only statistics, and I don't know if it's trustworthy.) But if you look at the overall picture, I still think that the "MBTI" profile matches the ISTp profile better than it matches any of the other socionics profiles.
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  #31  
Old 23/02/2006, 01:06 AM
Transigent Transigent is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

(again, at your own risk...)

First of all, you need to know the difference between good references, and bad ones.

McNew seems like a good guy, and a nice guy, but his website is NOT a good reference. It is not a good foundation.

Word descriptions of types are NOT a good reference. They are usually groups of generalizations, half-truths, and exaggerations.

Even the Gulenko ones on this website should just be used as a guide. Body types are a guide. VI is a guide. EVERYTHING is a guide.

The only solid thing is relations between types.

Secondly, MBTI is a "feel good" theory.

If you test as a type in MBTI, you "are" that type. They don't delve into the funcitonal details as much as socionics does.

In short, you need to seperate the charlatanry from the actual observations. This is not science as much as it is observation and categorization (which...I suppose could be considered science, but hush you!)

Finding out how they "correlate" is pointless. Why? Because MBTI doesn't really give any real thought to itself. It is like a horoscope.

Why is socionics not like a horoscope? Well, in some cases it can be, but there is a bit of truth in the relational aspects of it. If you focus more on this, you will eventually see trends.

Forget about MBTI completely.

If you don't you are shooting yourself in the foot.

And if you think that you are "brilliant" and you will connect them, then expect no help from anybody who knows much of anything.
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  #32  
Old 23/02/2006, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

It is your privilege, SG, to dismiss the whole problem in the way you just did. If I could, I would have referred to the "real" MBTI material on ISTJs, but there are such irritating things as copyright rules preventing me from doing that without breaking the law. If you have access to it, please use the "real" material instead. But I have a hard time seeing the relevance of that, since there is really no significant difference between the "real" stuff and that "crap" out there on the Internet. I have studied three, or maybe four, versions published at different times by the company who owns the licenses in Sweden, but most of the "crappers" are trying the best they can to describe the empirically same type. If some of them fail when trying, there are plenty of others who do it better, and if you read 50, or maybe 100, of those descriptions published on the web, you will get a pretty clear picture of the ISTJ type anyway.
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  #33  
Old 23/02/2006, 08:42 AM
Transigent Transigent is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

(My opinions; probably wrong; at your own risk.)

Prometheus,

Unless your posts in this thread are NOT indicative of your regular thinking patterns and general behaviours, you aren't INTj.

INTj's are clear and concise, and cut away most of the fat before actually discussing, and stating opinions on things.

MBTI is COMPLETELY incompatable with socionics. Theoretically, they are similar, but typing somebody in MBTI is fairly straightforward, while in socionics you have to do something called "Functional Analysis", and then double check your analysis by seeing how that person relates to other types.

For instance, a group of people may seem ESFp in MBTI, and be ENFj, ESFj, ESFp, ENTp, etc.

Like, each one will have WIDELY differing reactions to a certain type.

I think they actually gave some socionics experts MBTI descriptions, and the socionics types that the experts matched up to the MBTI types kinda showed that the two were generally not compatable.

No more MBTI talk. Please god, no more.

I could understand your posts and where you are coming from, and I think that is one of your main obstacles in understanding socionics. It is nowhere near compatable with MBTI.

Socionics is about the "functions" and the interaction of these functions with other people's functions.

It is NOT about fuzzy, "feel good" descriptions of people's actions and behaviours.
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  #34  
Old 23/02/2006, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Cancel, please show me a better reference than McNew's. (I have had difficulty finding socionics material in English. I regret that I didn't try harder to learn Russian when I was young.) Or show me where McNew is wrong.

I agree with you that word descriptions are "groups of generalizations". I want to come to general conlusions that are objectively true statements of the world. If they consist of a lot of half-truths and exaggerations I want to replace those parts with better ones.

I agree with you that "everything is a guide". That's one of the things I've tried to explain myself.

If "the only solid thing is relations between types", then tell me what these types are like, without referring to the theory. Describe those OBJECTS, between which there are relations. Don't describe the relations.

I agree with you that "MBTI is a 'feel good' theory". That's an irritating thing about it. You can get around it to some degree if you complement it with descriptions from the Enneagram model.

I agree with you that according to many practitioners of MBTI you "are" the type shown in your test result. I completely disagree with them. As I've tried to explain, I'm very sceptical about test results as the only guide to your type.

I agree with you that "you need to separate the charlatanry from the actual observations". That's what I am trying to do all the time, but I've had great difficulty explaining it to those of my friends who show some interest in typology.

I agree with you that "MBTI doesn't really give any real thought to itself". I disagree with you that it "is like a horoscope". Even if it has faults, and even if it is based on a mistaken foundation, it is still much more scientific than astrology. Socionics is, of course, also much more like a science than astrology, which is much more like crap.

I agree with you that there seems to "a bit of truth in the relational aspects" of socionics. Maybe more than a bit. And that's very interesting, since MBTI doesn't say too much about it. If you want to compare relation aspects, check out David Keirsey's theory instead.
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  #35  
Old 23/02/2006, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Ok, yeah...

I see j-kan as ENTp. He shows those traits, such as horrible use of psychological distance and bluntness (of which I would expect to be primarily an extraverted trait.)
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  #36  
Old 23/02/2006, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by j-kan:

so SG, do you think i'm an E or I NTp?
I don't know. On the picture you sent me (BTW, can I add it to your profile?) you look more I than E.
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  #37  
Old 23/02/2006, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: What is my type?

Where the devil are all these NTs coming from?
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  #38  
Old 23/02/2006, 11:22 PM
niveK niveK is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
Where the devil are all these NTs coming from?
Typology is an NT magnet.
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  #39  
Old 24/02/2006, 07:35 AM
j-kan j-kan is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

@SG, i'd prefer you not post it out. thanks!

i have checked out many tests but i still can't work out whether i am an E or an I. but hope the following bit of information helps.

- one sure way to make me hate someone is to embarrass me in public or have cold wars with me. a relative and an ex-colleague used to deliberately not talk to me and ignore me. you know, like those kids that form alliances and boycott someone. i was hurt and later on, the hurt turned into anger and i fought back. but i know i'll always hate them. i mean for me, silence treatment like that is very hurting.
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  #40  
Old 24/02/2006, 07:09 PM
niveK niveK is offline
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Default Re: What is my type?

Quote:
Originally posted by j-kan:
@SG, i'd prefer you not post it out. thanks!

i have checked out many tests but i still can't work out whether i am an E or an I. but hope the following bit of information helps.

- one sure way to make me hate someone is to embarrass me in public or have cold wars with me. a relative and an ex-colleague used to deliberately not talk to me and ignore me. you know, like those kids that form alliances and boycott someone. i was hurt and later on, the hurt turned into anger and i fought back. but i know i'll always hate them. i mean for me, silence treatment like that is very hurting.
Hmm... ILE is starting to sound possible now.

Look at the descriptions here and see if that will help.
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