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  #41  
Old 27/05/2008, 10:55 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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@vibe, i'm not saying this is right, but it's certainly possible if not plausable.
Yeah its just an analogue. The overlap between the analogue and reality is unknown to me.

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The difference in understanding between INTj and INTp is the use of the logic.
For some reason I like to separate understanding and knowing. But maybe it is the wrong way of looking at it? I think understanding is relative and knowing absolute -not saying that if you know something, then that "something" is really absolute, but rather that it becomes absolute to the person that knows this "something" since the logic they use to address the fact is the final/only reference for them. They cant crunch through their own thinking in the same way as Ti. But if you ask them about the logic itself they will probably refer to some logical proofs (facts) produced by other people. Logical proofs are maybe the final reference for Te?

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Te looks to apply the information in a practical sense. In some instances it is known as a 'business' logic, although I have some reservations bout that. Basically it looks to pull information together logically in a way that works, as long as it works and it logically works then that is fine.
That is my view as well. Empirical logic. Stringing together facts that have been shown to work or be true previously. It is safe but it does not survive the competition in the long run. I mean new knowledge has to be created through Ti all the time. Te feeds on Ti. Actually if Te would be up to date with latest Ti I guess Te and Ti would be indistinguishable, no?

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Ti looks to understand the rules of the system. It looks to create 'static' rules that remain pretty much constant and so can be applied in a consistent structural understanding.
I agree on this 99%. 1% no because Ti is always nervous to not be 100% correct!

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So Ti builds from the bottom up, and Te will build from the top down.
Yeah, this is the microscope vs the telescope analogue. Both views merge actually. When the telescope zooms in close enough it becomes a microscope, and vice versa.

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Can you see how that would impact on at least logico aspect the INTl/INTp approach?
I guess INTps are talking about the directory (=generalities) all the time (referrring to the contents) while the INTjs are talking about the contents (generalizing it into directory). It is almost hopeless!! Haha! I am somewhere in between. I understand both views but the INTj view is much simpler to understand for me.
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  #42  
Old 27/05/2008, 10:59 PM
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I agree on this 99%. 1% no because Ti is always nervous to not be 100% correct!
I thought it was intuition that was making people unsure because of the possibility unforeseen happening???
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  #43  
Old 27/05/2008, 11:00 PM
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Kanerou Kanerou is offline
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*lightbulb goes on* ESFj is seeking. Is that why my mother dislikes my being so vague, or is that something else?

*looks over at SG* OK, so INF may or may not be right for my type. If you feel like it's something else, could you tell me what that is?
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  #44  
Old 27/05/2008, 11:13 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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I thought it was intuition that was making people unsure because of the possibility unforeseen happening???
Ok I did not think that through.

Do you agree on my understanding INTj/INTp?

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*lightbulb goes on* ESFj is seeking. Is that why my mother dislikes my being so vague, or is that something else?
ESFj seeks Ti? INTj/ISTj? Your mother=ESFj? She dislikes you being vague? Because you are not Ti? But somethingelse? Not Se not Te Not Fe maybe Fi maybe Si maybe Ni maybe Ne? What functions are the vaguest ones? Is it Si/Ni/Ne/Fi/Ti?

Last edited by Vibration; 27/05/2008 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #45  
Old 27/05/2008, 11:50 PM
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ESFj seeks Ti? INTj/ISTj? Your mother=ESFj? She dislikes you being vague? Because you are not Ti? But somethingelse? Not Se not Te Not Fe maybe Fi maybe Si maybe Ni maybe Ne? What functions are the vaguest ones? Is it Si/Ni/Ne/Fi/Ti?
Yes, my mother is ESFj. I give noncommittal or vague answers, and it annoys her. *shrugs* It's a trait I picked up on. I can't say I always have done it. To the best of my memory (ha!), I haven't. Anyway, yes, it annoys her. I was asking if it was Ti-seeking because Ti-seeking IEIs and SEIs look for clarity in certain things. I assumed it crossed over. SG made the comment about N being possibly vague. I can see that. I think of the perceiving functions, Se would be the least vague. As far as judging functions, could they even be vague? It seems like they wouldn't be.

Question. Is it possible to be Si-leading but prone to hyper spurts? Also, what if one is aware of body state but chooses to ignore it at times?

Last edited by Kanerou; 27/05/2008 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #46  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:10 AM
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Only my personal experience. I might be completely wrong:

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To the best of my memory (ha!) I haven't.
=You have poor memory?

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SG made the comment about N being possibly vague. I can see that. I think of the perceiving functions, Se would be the least vague.
Yeah I agree. N is often insinuating which can be percieved as vague to people that dont get the vibes. Se is crystal clear/

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As far as judging functions, could they even be vague? It seems like they wouldn't be.
TiNe and TiSe can be very vague and FiNe maybe. Sometimes they care about explaning. Worst case it gives you some short statements/conclusions and expects you to do the rest.

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Also, what if one is aware of body state but chooses to ignore it at times?
Can happen to many people. Maybe not INFj and INTj so often.
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  #47  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:18 AM
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=You have poor memory?
Yes. Abysmal. Well...I'm the type that gets As on tests but forgets to turn in my homework from the day before. My mother says I have a selective memory. I admit it's true, but it's not on purpose.

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Yeah I agree. N is often insinuating which can be percieved as vague to people that dont get the vibes. Se is crystal clear.
Makes sense.

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Can happen to many people. Maybe not INFj and INTj so often.
Well, it's a good bet that I'm not j. I don't see myself as Se-leading. I'm not Ti-creative. After reading some IEE stuff, that type is in doubt. So it's down to NeFi, SiFe, or NiFe. I have traits of INFp and ISFp. Hence my asking about Se-leading.
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  #48  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:41 AM
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I mean new knowledge has to be created through Ti all the time.
No. Knowledge can never be created through Ti. For something to be knowledge is must be connected to reality, and Ti is not connected to reality. Ti can only build from what is already known (if it is to count as knowledge), it doesn't add any new knowledge. Everything is already implicit in the premises.
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  #49  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:45 AM
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No. Knowledge can never be created through Ti. For something to be knowledge is must be connected to reality, and Ti is not connected to reality. Ti can only build from what is already known (if it is to count as knowledge), it doesn't add any new knowledge. Everything is already implicit in the premises.
You cant create Te without Ti both are one and the same function.
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  #50  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:49 AM
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You cant create Te without Ti both are one and the same function.
That's another way of looking at it. But if we insist on making a disctinction anyway, it is more correct to say that Te is connected to knowledge than to say that Ti is.
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  #51  
Old 28/05/2008, 12:52 AM
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I wouldn't say that. Te takes in information that it considers useful and practical. How is that more connected to knowledge than Ti?
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  #52  
Old 28/05/2008, 01:36 AM
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No. Knowledge can never be created through Ti. For something to be knowledge is must be connected to reality, and Ti is not connected to reality. Ti can only build from what is already known (if it is to count as knowledge), it doesn't add any new knowledge. Everything is already implicit in the premises.
Ti has a sharper focus than Te. Ti seeks to focus. Te seeks to defocus. They do the same job but on different scales and with different goals.

That is my understanding.

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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
Ti has a sharper focus than Te. Ti seeks to focus. Te seeks to defocus. They do the same job but on different scales and with different goals.

That is my understanding.
Regards to reality, your Te is no better than your Ni, if I understand things correctly.
And vice versa. Noone is SeTiTe... Maybe you are?

I mean there is always a subjective component.

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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
Ti has a sharper focus than Te. Ti seeks to focus. Te seeks to defocus. They do the same job but on different scales and with different goals.

That is my understanding.



Regards to reality, your Te is no better than your Ni, if I understand things correctly.
And vice versa. Noone is SeTiTe... Maybe you are?

I mean there is always a subjective component.
Going to bed!

Cheers!

Last edited by Vibration; 28/05/2008 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #53  
Old 28/05/2008, 01:39 AM
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Kanerou Kanerou is offline
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G'night.

It's not that I don't find all this discussion interesting, because I do. However, I still need help.

I'll be around tomorrow.

Last edited by Kanerou; 28/05/2008 at 01:47 AM.
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  #54  
Old 28/05/2008, 01:45 AM
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I mean there is always a subjective component.
Not when it comes to knowledge. Knowledge is always objective.
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  #55  
Old 28/05/2008, 01:48 AM
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Not when it comes to knowledge. Knowledge is always objective.
Facts themselves are, yes, but the type of facts you value is a subjective issue.
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  #56  
Old 28/05/2008, 10:43 PM
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Addressing Kensi's typing, maybe. I don't know. The IPs all pertain to me somewhat. But I'm not a Caregiver.
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  #57  
Old 28/05/2008, 11:26 PM
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Facts themselves are, yes, but the type of facts you value is a subjective issue.
Knowledge is always objective. Opinions are subjective.
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  #58  
Old 28/05/2008, 11:28 PM
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Apparently, you and I define knowledge differently. Statement of fact, not a challenge.
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  #59  
Old 28/05/2008, 11:35 PM
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Most Likely type for Kanerou: ENTp or ENFp
Thoughts: Based on the information you provided, it is clear that Ne is your leading function and most likely your subtype. It is less clear whether you are thinking or feeling. I looked at your pictures but my VI based on still photographs is undeveloped so I did not try to VI you. I also commented on what I though some of your statements indicated:

“I need stability in my life, and I wish to know what is going on when” judging
“but I demand the right/ability to be flexible myself.” Perceiving.
“You all don't want to see my room; in 20 years, I have never developed the self-discipline to keep the darned thing clean.” Perceiving preference.
“I hate household chores.” intuitive
“I hate being told what to do.” Intuitive preference.
I would rather be advised, with the final decision left to me.” Intuitive preference.
“I hate having to assert my authority if I don't have complete control.” Intuitive preference.
“My motivation is low.” introverted, intuitive.
“I don't tend to pay attention to what's going on around me, and my spatial skills are pretty bad; I tend to hold a hand out as I round a corner so I can feel where it is rather than possibly bump into it.” Intuitive preference.
“I hate having my intelligence insulted.” T preference.
“I spend a lot of time in my head, and I love fantasy.” Intuitive.
I hate confrontation, but I have no problem griping about someone to someone else, nor did I have a problem in adolescence when someone complained to me about someone else.” Intuitive.
“I sometimes hold grudges.” Fe.
“I don't plan if I don't have to, and I don't manage time well
Perceiving, weaker Ni.
“I spend a lot of time stuck in the past or worrying about the future.” Intuitive.
“only recently have I really begun considering other people's feelings.” Thinking.
“I just don't appreciate others telling me how to live my life.” Intuitive.
“I dislike others having power (ie strong influence) over me, but I don't mind having it over them.” Se or Ti.

Me as a kid: I've toned myself down a lot since childhood, because people disapproved of me; I was openly rebellious, good with at least some details, impulsive (more so than now), and good at making friends in random places (grocery store, etc).” Perceiving, extroverted.
“I was also emotionally expressive.” Fe.
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  #60  
Old 28/05/2008, 11:39 PM
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How is Ne dominant clear?
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