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  #21  
Old 14/03/2006, 06:02 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

is it extraverted intuition as a first function that is most valued?

socionics.us gives us this:

1. The 1st is objective and simply mirrors reality, while the 2nd introduces an element of individual interpretation
2. The 1st describes what one does always (or almost always), while the 2nd describes the way the 1st function's program is realized
3. The 2nd describes the areas one works with, while the 1st describes the goal
4. The 1st is the end, the 2nd is the means (this one certainly sounds the neatest!)

with the relationship between the 1st and 2nd functions made a bit clearer, i see no reason to value Ne as a primary function over other functions.
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  #22  
Old 14/03/2006, 06:29 PM
Gilligan Gilligan is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Sergei, it's because ENFps have -Ne, which can pick out the negative potentials in +Ne's ideas and help to refine them. +Ne (alpha) sees the positive potentials for an idea, +Se (Beta) puts it in motion, -Se (Gamma) tries to harness it, and -Ne (Delta) picks out the flaws and refines it. That's how I see it, anyways.
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  #23  
Old 14/03/2006, 06:30 PM
Gilligan Gilligan is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
is it extraverted intuition as a first function that is most valued?

socionics.us gives us this:

1. The 1st is objective and simply mirrors reality, while the 2nd introduces an element of individual interpretation
2. The 1st describes what one does always (or almost always), while the 2nd describes the way the 1st function's program is realized
3. The 2nd describes the areas one works with, while the 1st describes the goal
4. The 1st is the end, the 2nd is the means (this one certainly sounds the neatest!)

with the relationship between the 1st and 2nd functions made a bit clearer, i see no reason to value Ne as a primary function over other functions.
You're absolutely right, there is no reason to value Ne over any other function, but it is often misrepresented as a kind of intellectual/open-mindedness Holy Grail, which is the flawed presumption that I believe Sergei is trying to dispell.
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  #24  
Old 14/03/2006, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by Gilligan:
Sergei, it's because ENFps have -Ne, which can pick out the negative potentials in +Ne's ideas and help to refine them. +Ne (alpha) sees the positive potentials for an idea, +Se (Beta) puts it in motion, -Se (Gamma) tries to harness it, and -Ne (Delta) picks out the flaws and refines it. That's how I see it, anyways.
Thank you for proving my point once more. You obviously did not invent this yourself but read about it somewhere and because in your understanding only ENTp's is the dog's bollox just proves that the impression one can get from various socionics sources is that ENTp is indeed THE ONE.

Anyway, the whole idea of + and - functions is ludicrous. It is dissection for the sake of dissection, which leads to complete lost of perspective and the whole.
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  #25  
Old 14/03/2006, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

How connected is the + / - system to reality? Did they notice it from observation? Or were they just mentally masturbating?

It seems kind of strange to me why they would seem to focus on the "flow of ideas" so much. Like, if something works, you keep it up; and if it doesn't work, you come up with another way...no matter what quadra you are in.

Perhaps it is a bunch of smart people sitting around thinking about ways to describe and idealize how they think? Personally, I think the time would be better spent with observation.

What I have found the ENTp is usually good for is knowing about anything new or cutting edge. Like if you were interested about some new technology or gadget, the ENTp probably knows all about it.

Alot of times even, they will start going on about something simply because they think it is "cool", even though you may not see any use for it at the time.

It seems as if the most usefull thing about ENTp's is that they have already dug deep into the "new developments" of thier speciality (whatever that may happen to be.)

I think that the matter of social contact between the types (and even groups of types) should far outwiegh any investigation about "flow of ideas"...

...but hell, what do I know anyway?

* * * * *

Like, things that would be interesting:

Relationship between an a body-bulider INTj and a skinny ESTp, 180 IQ ENFp and a 80 IQ INTj, a 180 IQ ISTj and 80 IQ ENTp, an ESTj pastor and an INTp atheist, an ESFp in a room full of INFj's, a ESTp and an autistic INFj, etc., etc.

Just to see what happens with relationships when the only thing that differs between the types is confidence in the functions, and not talents.
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  #26  
Old 14/03/2006, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by Cancel:
What I have found the ENTp is usually good for is knowing about anything new or cutting edge. Like if you were interested about some new technology or gadget, the ENTp probably knows all about it.
It would have been ideal if every ENTp was like that.
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  #27  
Old 14/03/2006, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Sergei, I appreciate how informative your information was. I think that you should post more information like that on your site.

See, by "ulterior"(sorry for my poor spelling) It seemed as though you reserved a bit of contempt about ENTp's and their strengths. It looked as though it manifested in a way which was directed at all ENTp's and people labeled as ENTp. It almost appeared as a plea for doubt or distrust at ENTp's. And I AM an ENTp and I DO have ideas and I believe they are of sound logic and also that I am a fair person with no biases. It seems like misinterpretation, translation, or ignorance which would make anyone seriously believe one quadra to be better than another. I agree that such misinterpretations are real and are common, but also that they are extinguished with time by their own invalidity.

More and more people in the Western World are becoming introduced to socionics. I base many fundamental opinions about people and the world around me on what I understand of socionics and how it relates to my objective reality. The more it expands the more balanced it will become, that is my belief. Things just reach a homeostasis, and equilibrium.

The "birth of idea" notion seems relative to the interests of alpha members and is by definition egocentric. In order to become recongnized by future quadras, in order for it to be born it must be "sold" to the other quadra. People don't submit to oppression by suggestion without potential gains. Alpha must convince others of the value of the idea and alpha lacks volition and material resources to do anything by "force" So the very notion that alpha is any stronger than anyone else is ridiculous. It is a ring, and each quadra is mutually dependent. It is a foolish illusion to believe in the supremacy of one quadra- and although I know it to be true that people will believe this, the reality, not the belief, will prevail and the illusion will no longer be. It's just how it works.

There is the illusion that America is run by rich old white Republican Christians. "They have all the money, they control the schools: "they oppress minorities and squander all the wealth! They came over and thought they had the right to kill off the indians and take the land. Their european culture represents everything bad about this world." Then there is the illusion that the Jews control America "They run the media and subvert the population. They are Zionists and think of everyone else as cattle. They control the wealth, they control public opinion, they control the elections!" and then there is the economic, global systems outlook. "its about oil, its about capitalism! It's about consumerism" then there is the "survival of the fittest!" perspective, or "universal equality of all men!" and then there is the "good, evil" approach, or the highly speculative scapegoating of secret societies and so forth, which are for the most part a combination of all of the above mentioned examples.

The truth about all of these perspectives is that they are typically egocentric perspectives encased in circular logic so they remain self justifying and seemingly logical. I think that they circular argument is the last line of defense in all of these philosophies. Some are ethical, some are logical. Some represent what is, some, what can be.

But it is a universal truth that what holds things together is coherency and understanding made possible by understanding the fundamental principles of intertype relationships. I could go on forever about this but I think I have made my point clear. I agree that there is the possibility for misunderstanding and discrimination, but i also see it as a universal inevitability and a catalyst for change. African, European, Asian, Jew, whatever- there is an interdependence and the false egocentric hope they "I am the best, i am worthy" idea which people need to believe in in order to get anything done.
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  #28  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:

See, by "ulterior"(sorry for my poor spelling) It seemed as though you reserved a bit of contempt about ENTp's and their strengths. It looked as though it manifested in a way which was directed at all ENTp's and people labeled as ENTp. It almost appeared as a plea for doubt or distrust at ENTp's. And I AM an ENTp and I DO have ideas and I believe they are of sound logic and also that I am a fair person with no biases. It seems like misinterpretation, translation, or ignorance which would make anyone seriously believe one quadra to be better than another. I agree that such misinterpretations are real and are common, but also that they are extinguished with time by their own invalidity.
It seems to me that sometimes people identify themseves with their type to such an extent that they almost prepared to admit - yeah, this is who I am, and so any negative reference towards their type they would treat as a personal attack.
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  #29  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

SG , please explain the Law of Quadras by examples. Specially, if you could do it by explaining how the communism developed. I know that Alpha invented the consept of communism (Marx ENTp; Engels ESFj), Beta imported the revolution (Lenin ESTp; Buharin INFp; Trotsky ENFj; Stalin ISTj). But communism never reached into Gamma and Delta. The idea died before, in Beta stage. So something is wrong, my dear dr Watson.
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  #30  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:18 AM
Gilligan Gilligan is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilligan:
Sergei, it's because ENFps have -Ne, which can pick out the negative potentials in +Ne's ideas and help to refine them. +Ne (alpha) sees the positive potentials for an idea, +Se (Beta) puts it in motion, -Se (Gamma) tries to harness it, and -Ne (Delta) picks out the flaws and refines it. That's how I see it, anyways.
Thank you for proving my point once more. You obviously did not invent this yourself but read about it somewhere and because in your understanding only ENTp's <img border="0" alt="[Extraverted Intuition]" title="Extraverted Intuition" src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Nes.gif" /> is the dog's bollox just proves that the impression one can get from various socionics sources is that ENTp is indeed THE ONE.

Anyway, the whole idea of + and - functions is ludicrous. It is dissection for the sake of dissection, which leads to complete lost of perspective and the whole.
I was never trying to disprove your point, Sergei. Stop trying to be hostile and maybe read what I actually said.
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  #31  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I cannot see the hostility in my comment. Could you point it out please?
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  #32  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
It seems to me that sometimes people identify themseves with their type to such an extent that they almost prepared to admit - yeah, this is who I am, and so any negative reference towards their type they would treat as a personal attack.


I did look at it as somewhat of a personal attack but also as an attempt to discredit me(whether is was somewhat directed at me or not) as potentially a fraud or a liar or an idiot. The way you worded it made you it seem like you were turning your back on most self proclaimed ENTp's. I understand the possibility that some people may think they are ENTp's and not be, but when this forum has a discourse going on, and people are expressing opinions and ideas you are exposing the ENTp's to scrutiny.

Relating recent conversation where you typed me as ENXp with this thread automatically put me into your little category. "Dont listen to Epic, he could be one of 'them'" now when no one takes what another person says seriously that will jeoporadize the confidence they place in their creative potential and you should know that. [/QB][/quote]
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  #33  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:36 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I did not type you as ENXp, stop it
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  #34  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

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  #35  
Old 15/03/2006, 08:38 AM
Gilligan Gilligan is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
I cannot see the hostility in my comment. Could you point it out please?
Then perhaps I misread.
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  #36  
Old 15/03/2006, 02:10 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

stop being politically correct. alpha quadra is superior and intj is at the top. entp's realized this but perpetuated a silly myth out of fear. muahaha
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  #37  
Old 15/03/2006, 05:30 PM
Rick Rick is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I saw a link to this discussion and thought I'd add my two cents. I agree with SG's point about the ENTp bias in socionics. I think it's on it's way out, though. All it takes is to look at the celebrity type lists that are all over the Internet. By no means are all the smart and innovative people ENTps. In fact, in recent years quite a few famous people originally typed as ENTp by Aushra have been recognized as other types. For example, Peter the Great is now usually considered ESTp, Newton has been convincingly demonstrated to be INTp, many socionists now think that da Vinci was ESTj, etc. But I think that type descriptions may be slower to recognize this fact.
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  #38  
Old 15/03/2006, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Hey Rick, glad you've joined!

On the types and celebrities... You have Spielberg listed as an ENTp, do you have a specific reason for this? I thought he might be an ENFp and so as Tim Burton. James Cameron and Guy Ritchie could be ENTps.
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  #39  
Old 15/03/2006, 06:16 PM
Rick Rick is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by SG:
Hey Rick, glad you've joined!

On the types and celebrities... You have Spielberg listed as an ENTp, do you have a specific reason for this? I thought he might be an ENFp and so as Tim Burton. James Cameron and Guy Ritchie could be ENTps.
Hi Sergei!
Just the observations I list on my page. Plus, of course, he visually reminds me of some of ENTp's I've known, but that doesn't help much in discussion. As a possible argument against ENFp I would say that he doesn't seem to try to be making an impression on people in any of his photographs as I'm used to seeing ENFp's do. Just a sort of "oh, you're taking my picture?" attitude. To me he seems too emotionally detached to be an ENFp.
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  #40  
Old 15/03/2006, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Would the most highly esteemed types in the socionics culture in general be Intuitive? Seems like the S types might have the dubious honor of keeping the intuitive ideas somewhat grounded and therefore may often be the practical party poopers. Anyone who idealises any type is using socionics as a false prop.
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