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  #1  
Old 13/03/2006, 05:35 PM
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Default The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Well, not really Socionics as such but rather Socionics people. One thing that makes me very angry is that ENTp in Russian Socionics is untouchable. ENTp is considered type number 1, the beginning of everything, simply The One. Ok fair enough, you have to pay respect to Aushra, but everything has its limits! Since Socionics is a bit of a cult, the Alpha quadrable (for the same reason as ENTp) is considered the beginning of everything. It is like an Elite of Socionics. So if you are not Alpha, you suck! No surprise here, everyone wants to be Alpha (it is almost like racism, I am not joking) so which one of Alpha can you be? Of course, E N T p. Because if you are a bit eeh and a bit uuh and look a bit of a space cadet, who can doubt you? ENTps are so versatile and so well documented that anyone can pretend to be one. You don't need to go far, Dmitry Lytov was doing it for years and got away with it. And this is not all. If someone has made an important discovery, started a new trend, invented some novelty, etc, they blindfoldedly are given status of an ENTp. But this is not all. There must be some magic about ENTps because lots of those people type other people on principal: "I like him or her...they must be an ENTp". The leader of a band I like – ENTp, my favourite actor – ENTp, a very nice person I happened to like – ENTp!

Well now you know the dark side of Socionics. I am sorry if I offended genuine ENTps. I don't know about you guys, but I would be pretty pissed off if everyone wanted to be an INTj.
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Old 13/03/2006, 05:45 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

i like the alpha quadrable being alpha, but i dont see how entp could possibly hold its position within the alpha. it is too easy to discredit the tendency not to follow ideas to their logical/more subtle conclusion, as entp's sometimes are guilty of. (entp's and subtlety are like oil and water). not to worry sg, a coup-ing is a brewing. muahhahaha
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Old 13/03/2006, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I personally have nothing against ENTps, don't misunderstand me. I just don't like people shoving it down my throat.
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Old 13/03/2006, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

From what I could tell of MBTI, INTJ is the desireable type to be in that system. Of course, who wouldn't want to be "the Mastermind"?
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Old 13/03/2006, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Is this really the way people are about Socionics in Russia?

My initial experiences with Jungian typology(maybe this is an American thing) is that extroverts are usually regarded as the inferior type, introverts being more "self aware" and rationals being the most "intelligent"

And who tends to top the list?

I'd say INTj and INTp.

I think that everyone has a secret and imaginary jealousy of some other type for whatever reason- usually its based upon the spirit of the times. Alpha is in, its #1 so its the best.

But if you look at the internal complexities of the information Delta and Beta have advantages over Alpha just as much as Alpha has over them. The idea of differences in information are not biased.

The non-biased approach is what drew me to socionics.
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Old 13/03/2006, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
From what I could tell of MBTI, INTJ is the desireable type to be in that system.
Right. At least for other NTs.

Quote:
Of course, who wouldn't want to be "the Mastermind"?
Probably some of the F-types. But you'd better ask them.
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Old 13/03/2006, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

that's why people should carefuly choose the words they use and try to be unbiased. true that ENTps are the most well documented type and they are praised the most in the russian descriptions on socionics.org. every type deserves it and as it seems has nautral social niche. they could have written that INFps make one of the best musicians for example. or better they could have presented just some neutral descriptions.
might be my own Ni thinking that everyone should know what influence could have the words and the materials they write in long term but as authorities they should have been conscious of the possible influence they might have in the future. of course when socionics becomes popular in the future there will be different fields. people which accept blindly what is written and become biased. kind of pop-culture-field. and other people which take the time to doubt what is written, observe, see for themselfs and eventually have their own opinions on things. anyway it's something that happens basically everywhere and this topic will remain in this forum buried, might make let's say 100 people which have found the topic trough google or just by visiting the forum change their opinions. so if someone wants to make a real change and prevent at least to some extent the arising of at least some of the worst stereotypes he/she better start to write mails or something, go to russia talk with the people which are responsible or just hack the site and change the texts to something more neutral . anyway i think it's inevitable anyway because there will be always ENTps in the fields of socionics and they have the natural tendency to idealize themselfs and they will always find ways to push in something. actually they are good brainwashers on a global level and i have observed some similar uh.. marketing? techniques which they use when they try to sell their next revolutionary product or establish some political influence. too bad i'm slowly getting paranoid because the patterns simply repeat even in the usual daily communcation when you drink your tea with them. i like to think that this is might be the only way for their theories/ideas to get actually some exposition and people can make use of them. they better be careful on what they choose to promote on the expense of the society, that's it. it's just not neccessery to promote every part of your body and every single thought which you consider to be brilliant =)
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Old 13/03/2006, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

That's odd, I see a trend reflecting precisely the opposite properties within 16types, where ENTps are generally held with distrust---or, at the very least, they appear to be held as such.
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Old 13/03/2006, 07:14 PM
krae krae is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

yes but these are some local stereotypes which have arised just because there are some highly manipulative individuals which don't know how to behave. i recall the times before the first ENTjs came there. ENTjs simply were the most bad type because of the personal experiences of some people but then some really mature representives came and as you can see these stereotypes simply don't exist anymore.
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Old 13/03/2006, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

If I could choose who to be, it would be ENFj. But I am not.

Actually, I don't know if I am ENTp.

Was your talking about type masks?
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Old 13/03/2006, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Well, I think most of the attitude comes from thinking that because Aushra is ENTp and she's invented Socionics then any ENTp could understand Socionics better than anyone else and therefore whatever ENTp says is gold in terms of Socionics. So if you want to sound credible without too much effort, you better be an ENTp. Hah!
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Old 13/03/2006, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Such things make the theory way too much one-sided.
Where there are many people with the same valuse, f.e. types, the flaw of not seeing the weak points arises. Like, you speak English with mistakes. Then you find a lot of people who do the same. So you loose that feeling of shame. And the problem forgets. But you still speak it with mistakes. Socionics seems to make the same flaws. Because a lot of them have Fi as 4th function, they don't mind about how to make socionics into something like a value of how the human relationships need care. You don't find a lot about material about harmony with the different types of relationships.
This is how I understand your point.
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Old 13/03/2006, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I really think that this is imaginary. I don't remember anyone ever saying anything along the lines that cause Augusta was ENTp that ENTp's are the best at understanding socionics. I don't speak Russian, so I can't say what it is like in Russia, but I think that this is just a really lopsided assumption with alterior motives.
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Old 14/03/2006, 12:40 AM
MysticSonic MysticSonic is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

This topic is about the predjudices of the Russian Socionic community, isn't it?
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Old 14/03/2006, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I imagine this being more about people on internet forums or people that run web-pages.

Is Socionics even recognized as a legitimate field? Is there an objective(and by that i mean empirically studied) basis for it?
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Old 14/03/2006, 04:16 AM
Gilligan Gilligan is offline
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

SG, I think you're blowing this out of proportion a little bit. I think what's happening here is that the people reading the descriptions are idealizing what's being said. No doubt, there is some bias towards Extraverted Intuition being a kind of "catch-all intellectual function," as Rick says, but that aside, I think it's mostly due to interpretation. People tend to idealize the thought of Extraverted Intuition as a kind of "take everything in at once" function, when in reality it's closer to "skimming the cream off the top," as Rick puts it. With this misperception dispelled, the ENTp becomes much less ideal, and really no more desireable than any other type, in my opinion.

Personally, I'd give up any kind of cognitive advantage that an ENTp gains with Introverted Thinking and gain the people skills of an IEE any day. Who cares about being "unbiased" and "objective?" Any type can do that. So what if they're better at math? Any type can learn these things in time. ENTps, conversly, can NOT really ever have people skills like an ENFp or ESFj.

In conclusion, I don't think it's really fair to say that ENTps are favored as a kind of intellectual messiah, and if we are, it's because, quite frankly, most of us downright suck when it comes to people. We've gotta get something, right?
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Old 14/03/2006, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

I think he made a good point.

If people are fooling themselves into being ENTp in the Russian Socionics community, well, then, there is just something wrong with something somewhere.

Now, as for Lytov, hmmm...

/

or maybe even

/

hmmmmm... (I is bad at VI)
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Old 14/03/2006, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:
Is there an objective(and by that i mean empirically studied) basis for it?
Yes, but in order to find it you need NeTi.
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Old 14/03/2006, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

What I meant, maybe there are 16 personality theories.

Or 16 understandings of one theory.
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  #20  
Old 14/03/2006, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: The narrow-mindedness of Russian Socionics

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:
I really think that this is imaginary. I don't remember anyone ever saying anything along the lines that cause Augusta was ENTp that ENTp's are the best at understanding socionics. I don't speak Russian, so I can't say what it is like in Russia, but I think that this is just a really lopsided assumption with alterior motives.
Well Epic, I think it would be really interesting to know what the ulterior motives in your opinion are. Maybe I have imagined all this stuff, maybe it is all untrue, I let you decide.

There is this thing in Socionics called "Zakon smeniaemosti kvadr", which translates as "The law of quadrable alternation". It has been formulated by A. Bukalov, the director of Socionics Institute in Kiev and V. Gulenko, you already know. This "law" is also included in several Socionics publications.

What does it mean? It means that the quadrables alternate in the following fashion: Beta comes after Alpha, Gamma comes after Beta, Delta comes after Gamma and Alpha comes after Delta and so on. This is how they explain it.

Every idea has 4 stages of existence. 1) It is born, 2) It is tried, 3) It is pushed, 4) It is utilised. When it dies on the forth stage it is because there is a better idea, so in a way the old idea gives birth to a new idea and then the cycle repeats itself.

Ok, so far it sounds about right. So these guys put two and two together and came up with the idea to link these 4 stages to the 4 quadrables, and it worked. The Alpha quadrable gives birth to an idea, Beta tries it, Gamma pushes it, Delta milks it. Wonderful, no problem, it seems that this is the way it happens in reality.

Then them or somebody else decided to appoint an ENTp as a leader of Alpha quadrable and call ENTp "The programmer" because they were convinced that ENTp is the one that defines the direction Alpha quadrable takes as a unit of the Socion. So Alpha quadrable is important because it generates new ideas and ENTps are important because they are the leaders of Alpha quadrable.

Can you see now where this ENTp exclusiveness comes from? ENTp comes up with an idea that the WHOLE Socion works on... ENTp IS THE PROGRAMMER OF THE SOCION!!! So everything begins with an ENTp, or maybe I just imagine it?

Now this is the Socion:

ENTp ISFp ESFj INTj
ENFj ISTj ESTp INFp
ESFp INTp ENTj ISFj
ESTj INFj ENFp ISTp

The first two columns called left Ring of Benefit because there are relations of Benefit between ENTp -> ENFj -> ESFp -> ESTj -> ENTp... Same for ISFp -> ISTJ ->...etc. It goes downwards.

The last two called the right Ring of Benefit and it goes upwards. So what they say is that the first two rings push the idea forward and the last two rings resist it and therefore it refines the idea on the way.

(If you rearrange the types slightly differently you get Rings of Supervision, but they will still go with the Rings of Benefit direction wise.)

So what did they miss?

Straight away. What about an ENFp? They have the same fundamental as an ENTp and is equally capable of coming up with crazy ideas, which maybe not oriented but oriented, but this does not make those ideas less radical. The Big Brother idea is the work of an ENFp, none the less. And so this idea is born in Delta quadrable instead of Alpha and it gets pushed upwards instead of downwards where it still has all 4 stages of transformation and it finishes in Alpha instead of Delta.

Ok, what about if an ISFj comes up with an idea? Or maybe ISFj cannot come up with an idea? Of course an ISFj can perfectly well come up with an idea and so any other type. I will be different from ENFp's idea or ENTp's idea, but it will still be an idea.

One more thing, there is no exclusive "The programmer" in a quadrable. "The programmer" is the type that comes up with an idea because in relation to that idea the whole quadrable is listening to "The programmer".

So does it still look like my own imagination Epic?

Disclaimer: I do not have anything against ENTps, I love you guys, please don't misunderstand my intentions.
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