Go Back   Socionics Forums > Ramble Mumble

Ramble Mumble Anything goes, but please make an effort to stay positive and keep it socionics related.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 28/09/2006, 03:40 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Things you have to know about enneagram

Here you have indirect prooves for the validity of enneagram:
www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/SHLrelease_full.asp

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=...Flanguage_tools



http://translate.google.com/translate?u=...Flanguage_tools
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28/09/2006, 04:05 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
"The research suggested that the nine Enneagram types, as described by Don Riso and Russ Hudson of The Enneagram Institute, do have validity as real and objective indicators of personality," continued Bartram.
So does this mean there are only 9 personality types in the whole world or does it mean that there are only 9 personalty types that could be determined using enneagram instruments?

Anyway, the main question is - can enneagram type change?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 28/09/2006, 07:31 PM
BLauritson's Avatar
BLauritson BLauritson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 156
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
So does this mean there are only 9 personality types in the whole world or does it mean that there are only 9 personalty types that could be determined using enneagram instruments?
I'd say that until a typology which encompasses absolutely every human trait possible, and states which traits are likely to belong to which types, there will never be a complete typology. That's not to say that any incomplete typology is wrong as such, but I'd say that's the reason why the various typologies can overlap to a certain extent.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 29/09/2006, 09:37 AM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Did you look at this PDF:
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ar...HLresearch.pdf

Look at three resources I have given you, all of them are important.

So does this mean there are only 9 personality types in the whole world or does it mean that there are only 9 personalty types that could be determined using enneagram instruments?


There are only nine personality types in the whole world using the enneagram instrument. Thousands of people from different cultures and population where observed for years, and they came out with this conclusion. Nine types for 6 billion people? Yes, enneagram only looks for inner motivations and perceives behaviours as the manifestation of inner mechanisms adopting themselves to external factors and past experience. So the existence of nine types does not disallow the existence of an infinity of variations among the same type. Type seven is turned to searching for pleasure, but enneagram does not determine what are his pleasures. For some sevens, sensations are pleasures, for others music is a pleasure, for certain sevens (like my advisor) mathematics is a great pleasure. Anyway, sevens rarely do have one pleasure. Sixes look for clear sructures/groups/beliefs... but enneagram does not state what are the structures/groups/beliefs which attract sixes. For certain sixes, the church or the islamic party and religion are what sixes search for, for others it is the political party, for others it is simply the family... A type does not describe all the traits of a person and it cannot do it.

Before I answer your next question I have to give very important remarks. To prove the type of the person one has to give evidences about his passion, fixation, compulsion, preferred centre and mechanism of defense; like the René Magritte prooves. Behaviour is never enough to give any proove. If type seven is joyful and likes pleasures, this does not mean that others can't be like that. What is the difference than? For a 7 avoiding the suffering is the main compulsion (which leads to gourmandise and pleasure seaking), which means that if there is a conflict between this compulsion and another one,the strongest (which is avoiding the suffering) will win. I avoid suffering as well, but if there a conflict between it and the compulsion of avoiding the deviance (which is the one of a 6), I will be ready to suffer in order to avoid deviance. (when we say deviance we mean deviance according to the group, the belief...). The compulsion and all other parts of mechanisms of all types, do exist in us, but the ones of our type is the strongest. Keep always this in mind.

Determining the type of the other is the most complex thing to do in enneagram, so do not rely on your typations if you are not completely formed in a respectful enneagram institute.

Anyway, the main question is - can enneagram type change?

Behaviour and the level of integration can change a lot, but enneagramists believe that our type cannot change. I don't know if they have prooves for that, what I know is that none of enneagamists could change his type or see others change their type.

The important thing is not, what your type is. But what do you do with your type. In all types you find bustards, ordinary people and extraordinary people.

THE INTERNATIONAL ETHIC CODE OF ENNEAGRAM WHICH HAS TO BE RESPECTED:
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 29/09/2006, 09:46 AM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

THE INTERNATIONAL ETHIC CODE OF ENNEAGRAM WHICH HAS TO BE RESPECTED:

http://www.creativenet.net/dev/inter...dmore.php?id=8
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29/09/2006, 10:08 AM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

That is interesting. If the enneagram type doesn't change, and you can probably trust someone who says that there are only 9 personality types in the whole world , then isn't this should be pretty obvious to everybody? Come on there are only 9 types that do not change, how difficult is to remember 9 different personalities, unless of course you are total recluse and do not know how people look like. So there are 16 types according to Jung that do not change and further 9 enneagram types which makes it 25 or is it 16 x 9? What I am saying is that fair enough, enneagram is just another system for mapping personality, but it is not a washing powder commercial - "Our powder cleans whiter than white", so making statements like: "There are only 9 personality types in the whole world that are true and real!" is pretty irresponsible and gives people wrong impression, like it did to you, since you decided to buy it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 29/09/2006, 10:53 AM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

How many different colours of hair are there? Not so many, isn't it? But how many types of eyes are there? much more. So the number depends on what are the considered criterias.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 29/09/2006, 11:02 AM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
How many different colours of hair are there? Not so many, isn't it? But how many types of eyes are there? much more. So the number depends on what are the considered criterias.
They claim that 9 types are real and objective representation of personality. Real and objective? Objective? How can you objectively represent a forest, where each tree is unique? That what personality is like - unique.

Never mind, let's get back to enneagram basics. Where all the 9 types come from? Is there an underlying structure explaining why there are only 9 types or someone just decided that 9 is a pretty number?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 29/09/2006, 11:30 AM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Oh yeah, and I like this: no one is pure type - it is always a type and a wing. So how do you know which type is who. Just the test? Because you can't really use descriptions since a) no one is pure type and b) everyone has "levels of development". I particulary like these "levels of development". If you can't fit in a particular type/wing thingy you must be on a "different" level of development. So how many levels are there? Can you test them: type 6 wing 5 level 9?

Oh yeah the test. I just took 2 tests (I have never taken enneagram test before in my life ). On one I came type 4 on the other 5 and 6, by official descriptions I relate more to 8 or 9. Interesting thing I've noticed, you can make an INTp description by rephrasing many test questions into sentences.

INTp profile by the Enneagram Test "http://similarminds.com/test.html">

"My life is defined by loneliness. I am a loner. I could survive as a hermit. I contradict others. I tend to take precautions. I am always worried about something. I am often extremely sad. I value solitude immensely. Sometimes I am overly cautious. I tend to prepare for worst case scenarios. I have a heightened awareness of danger. I require lots of time alone to recharge. Unpleasant feelings overwhelm me, frequently."

Does this make you wanna slit your wrists?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 30/09/2006, 12:21 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

How can you objectively represent a forest, where each tree is unique? That what personality is like - unique.

Each person is unique because each person has a genes combination which isn't common with anyone. But this doesn't mean that each of his genes is unique. Uniqueness comes from combinations.

I will tell you where do the 9 types come from. But forget about everything you now about Jungian functions in order to avoid confusions. Enneagram and Jungian typology evaluate different components of a personality.

There are three centres of interest (or you can say of intelligence): the instinctive, the emotional and the mental centre.

" The instinctive centre wants to assure us our physical and psychological survival in the instant/moment. For that, it makes in parallel the actual situation and past similar situations in order to find already applied efficient solutions. This comparison past/present is not intellectual, not even conscious; its object is to go to action. Not being able to take risks on a subject as important as our survival, the instinctive centre prefers solutions which have proven their reliability at any new situation. It is then the centre of our attitude in face of changements and of our motivations to act. This doesnot disallow it to be creative in action if the circumstances oblige. The instinctive centre is responsable for our physical coordination and our spontaneous acts. It expresses our sensuality and our deepest vitality."

The emotional centre is, like its name indicates,the one of emotions, of the expression of our desires and needs. It is also the centre of our relationship with others, of the perception of their feelings, of their desires and needs. Emotions are extremly variated. In French language, there is many thousands of words which describe them and from one moment to another they evoluate, especially if we are conscious of them. To a superficial level, we can be sad or happy for ten minutes; but if we are really paying attention to our emotions, we will figure out that they are permanently changing. This makes the emotional centre living deeply in the instant."

"The mental centre is the place of reasonning and reflexion. It is interested in knowledge, likes knowing and be disposed of information. It analyses logically a situation. Valorises objectivity. Builds plans and projects. It takes decisions. It generates new ideas. It is future-oriented."

paragraphs are taken from the Chabreuils book: "Comprendre et gérer les types de personnalité".

.....To be continued
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 30/09/2006, 12:55 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

"People who prefer the instinctive centre have a lot of energy. They consider enormously important the fact that others have to be honest with them. They are preoccupied by their security. In a given situation, they want to be strong and have control. They estimate power ( in the sens of domination and having control) as an efficient way of action on others and themselves. Since this control and this power can never be absolute, they feel anger, whether it is conscious or not, accepted or not, expressed or not. They can be rancorous. They are occupied by the good and the bad and by justice. They have a tendancy to think in binary terms: black or white, good or bad, fair or unfair, friend or ennemy... In the enneagram model, types 8,9 and 1 prefer the instinctive centre."

People who prefer the emotional centre interprete life through their emotions which they voluntarily express. They have the desire of being in relation with others and wait in return from them to share their emotions; they feel a kind of sadness because the contact/relation with others can never be as intimate as they wish. They are sensitive to the image they project. They intuitively understand others and their emotions and know how to take them into consideration in order to adapt their behaviour. Attentive in priority to the emotions that they perceive their changing character, they have, consciously or not, a certain uncertainty about their identity. In the enneagram model, types 2, 3 and 4 prefer the emotional centre.

People who prefer the mental centre want to know and possess information. When we communicate with them, they appreciate that this is done with objectivity and without a lot of emotional charge. They react to stress by withdrawal and reflexion. They analyse situations with rationality; if they think they are right, they stay on their position and cannot be convinced by other arguments. They usually have a sens of intellectual superiority; they can show it by a corrosive sens of humour. Since their reason does not allow them explain everything, they feel, consciously or not, a certain anxiety. In the model of enneagram, types 5, 6 and 7 prefer the mental centre. .

.....TO BE CONTINUED
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 30/09/2006, 01:20 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
There are three centres of interest (or you can say of intelligence): the instinctive, the emotional and the mental centre.
That's right, I went that far in my understanding of enneagram. Where do these centres come from? Why 3 centres? Why these 3 centres? I want to get to the source.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 30/09/2006, 01:25 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

For instinctive people, conviction comes before reflexion. They instinctively sense what is needed, what they want and how things must be. They may like theories only if they have a practical application. Thinking in black and white they are mostly interested by experience and result. Theory for theory (especiall for type 8), even if they are NTs shows a weak spirit. Instinctive types are also called anger types, or indolence types (which is the passion of type 9=the primary type of the instinctive triade).

Emotional people pay attention to the image they project because, it is this image which will help them make a contact with others. So instead of behaving like they are, they adopt the image which they think will let them be loved. They are also called image types. Projecting the image they like to show is a kind of unconscious lying which is the passion of the primary emotional type=3.

Mental people usually replace doing by thinking. They need long phases of reflexion before taking any decision. Because they cannot know everything they want to know (especially when it comes to foresight). So fear, which is the passion of type 6(=primary mental type), is common to all of members of the mental triade. They are also called fear types. But most of them are not conscious of their fear. But we can infer from a deep analysis and observation of their behaviour that fear is a central factor to understand their personnalities.

Do not think of enneagram as a prison containing nine jails. But rather as a spectrum (like the colours spectrum). You know that yellow, red and blue are enough to build all the colours, so they are primary colours. In parallel, there are three primary types: 3,6 and 9. For instance, if you make a combination between type 3 and type 6, you will get type 4 or type 5.

......TO BE CONTINUED.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30/09/2006, 01:40 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Sergei, please let me finish answering all your questions before you ask new ones.

Now why are there three types in each centre. Each enneagramist has his own explanation.... oups, I can't do everything today. Okay, I will continue the rest soon. I am sorry I have wasted a lot of time.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 30/09/2006, 01:44 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Well it is funny how I demand a Ti explanation and you bombard me with lots of Te instead.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01/10/2006, 01:40 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Before I continue how did we get 9 types I will answer the rest of your questions.

I have already said to metroGnome that there isn't any enneagram test which is 100% accurate. So is the case for Socionics/MBTI test, but in the case of enneagram the accuracy of tests is in average even lower because detecting the enneagram type is harder. Don Riso and Russ Hudson made a lot of effort to make a test, but the accuracy they came out with was disappointing: not more than 40% and they tell you that it is 70% but they are lying. The most accurate enneagram test is the one made by David Daniel and you can find it in his book: "The essential enneagram". The accuracy of this test is a bit more than 50%.(He tells you that it is 66%).

In the same type we can have different levels of developpement, but Don Riso and Russ Hudson determined the different levels of developpement and not all enneagramists follow them.

About the wing:
I will come back to the principle that enneagram is like a spectrum. You know that turquoise is the mix of blue with green. But you have turquoises which are closer to blue and others that are closer to green. So is the case of types and wings. I'm a 6 with a 7 wing which means that I have a colouration which is closer to 7 than to 5. My 5 wing is called a potential wing. It can be developped by a lot of personal work. Its use is rather optional. But my 7 wing is called principle.

Our wing is a strategy used by our type which is a difficult thing to understand. For example my type which is 6 can make use of the mechanisms of type 7 in order to realizes its objective. For instance, as a 6 my passion is fear so my objective is to reach security. So my type will make use of the passsion of type 7 which is gourmandise and will seek pleasure in order to forget about my fear and feel a kind of false security.

Another example I can give: as I have already stated the compulsion of my type is to avoid the deviance. In case I am accused of being a deviant, my ego will directly search to defend itself. My type will use its defense mechanism which is projection to project this unbearable accusation on others, and the defense mechanism of type 7 which is rationalization in order to justify myself. So the result will be: It is not me but them because bla,bla,bla....

For now, if you want to know your type do not confuse yourself with a lot of information. Just explore the 3 centres and the types well and forget about wings/developpement...etc

Similarminds is just anything.

......To be continued
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01/10/2006, 01:59 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

[i] That's right, I went that far in my understanding of enneagram. Where do these centres come from? Why 3 centres? Why these 3 centres? I want to get to the source.

I will ask the enneagramist with which I have contact (who is Chabreuil, the founder of the french institute) in order to sure of that.

In the meanwhile I will try to answer myself:

Do you know the structure of the brain? You have the reptilien brain (which corresponds to the instinctive centre), the limbic brain (which corresponds to the emotional centre) and the cortical brain (which corresponds to the mental centre).

If you observe yourself, you will remark that all you do is to act, think and feel.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01/10/2006, 03:22 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
Do you know the structure of the brain?
I had a fair idea yes, until I read your interpretation. Maybe you should check on the structure of the brain yourself. What you are saying is not even near to the real structure of the brain, but rather somewhat perverted, simplified attempt to describe how the brain functions. There is a "reptilian brain", ok, the primitive mechanism of survival, which is not even concious. It takes control in the life threatening situations. Fair enough, you can call it instinctive, but if all I do is act (which I assume you connect with instinctive brain) feel and think, then you impossibly bend the idea. This would be true for my actions under life threatening conditions, but I am surely not in such conditions 24/7, well at least I hope so. If you however imply that instinctive/reptilian brain has anything to do with the sensing I will strongly disagree with you, since there are other parts of the brain that are proven to be involved in sensory processing as we know it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02/10/2006, 02:16 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

I am not an expert in biology so I will leave morphology aside.

Sensing is one particular example which may include any of the three centres maybe. Intuition is mental. Give an example of something you do which includes things other than thinking, acting and feeling.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02/10/2006, 04:57 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default Re: Things you have to know about enneagram

Quote:
Give an example of something you do which includes things other than thinking, acting and feeling.
I also sleep sometimes.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 SOCIONICS.COM