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  #21  
Old 26/04/2008, 03:52 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Ni looks for different things than Si. In my opinion, you misunderstand if you mean they are seeing the same thing.

Edit: infact if that is what you mean, then either your understanding or my understanding is seriously flawed.

Last edited by Cyclops; 26/04/2008 at 03:58 PM.
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  #22  
Old 26/04/2008, 06:12 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Ni looks for different things than Si.
Now that is a classical low IQ statement. Hahaha. How the **** do you know that in first place?

Ni/Si might be looking for that SAME thing but processing it differently. Ni/Si might be looking for DIFFERENT things and then processing it in the same way, + plus all inversions/combinations etc. etc. etc (can you see those possibilities?).

The whole theory is relative, as relative as psychology is/was. I hope you understand that. Evidence is needed.

Do you have a have a brain that can grasp those ideas and see the consequences of it, for you and others that depend on you and your statements that affect the world around you and your brain?
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  #23  
Old 26/04/2008, 06:22 PM
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@epic, i'm not keen to accept that it is a good idea to bring up kant, as on the face of it, i'm not keen on the idea that one must have to read up on philosophy in order to understand a function...

You can observe Ni in action without knowing anything about kant, of course. Surely there must be a way to define a function which makes it accessible in understanding to all? Or is it an excuse for people like yourself and remo to talk about stuff that other people don't know about. Sounds rather elitist. Hey..maybe it's because i don't really see much IRL practical applications of philosophy, or something.

Re, time: if the correct definition of time 'the rate at which things change' I don't think one has to have memory in order for things to change, it happens wether one remembers or not (for instance, one doesn't have to remember to know..one can keep records, look at indirect evidence such as digging to look at soil changes for historical changes)

In terms of a human using Ni..does she have to 'remember' for it to work? Is not Ni able to 'see past' what it remembers and see what it's possibilities of what it could have been or used to be?.Ni can then work even in the moment, regardless of it's memory.
I mentioned Kant because Kant is the foundation of of all of these ideas that we all discuss on this forum. It goes(generally speaking) Kant>Jung>Socionics. Many of the conclusions he has reached resemble my own, so I believe in him. As far as my knowledge goes, Kant is the LII distiller of psychological functions. Jung 'stood on his shoulders'.

I agree that one does not need to be pedantic or involved in esoteric ideas to identify types, or functions. But it takes a cooperation of some sorts of mind to make these observations into a penetrating science.

I think that time is the result of some kind of interaction of transcendental(separate from the external sense) laws. I think that time is the interaction of the laws of functional analysis. The laws are undeniable.
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  #24  
Old 26/04/2008, 07:16 PM
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Now that is a classical low IQ statement. Hahaha. How the **** do you know that in first place?
You do not know what I know, or how I know it. Therefore your comment about my IQ is irrelevant, your question is of more interest to me, but your (logically assumed inappropriate) language leaves me less inclined to answer.
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Originally Posted by Vibration
Ni/Si might be looking for that SAME thing but processing it differently. Ni/Si might be looking for DIFFERENT things and then processing it in the same way, + plus all inversions/combinations etc. etc. etc (can you see those possibilities?).
It also might want to make me a cup of tea. What do you mean by processing? Also, is it relevant if it processes whatever 'it' is in the same way if it has different things to process?

The answer is either it takes different things on or it processes differently. The answer is that it is also not relevant in terms of it's manifestation. I bet you think both is correct, but the first is more 'relevant.'

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Originally Posted by Vibration
The whole theory is relative, as relative as psychology is/was. I hope you understand that. Evidence is needed.
Relative to what? What is evidence needed for? I assume you mean evidence to support socionics? If so I agree. And if so, what evidence should we be looking for do you think?
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Originally Posted by Vibration
Do you have a have a brain that can grasp those ideas and see the consequences of it, for you and others that depend on you and your statements that affect the world around you and your brain?
I do have a brain that can grasp what you call 'ideas.' So now that I have answered your question, can I ask you if you see the emphasis you are putting on Ne in your post(s)? Perhaps (whatever you 'think') we could add that to your 'evidence' (if/once of course we establish what your talking about -- in that regards)

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Originally Posted by Epic View Post
I mentioned Kant because Kant is the foundation of of all of these ideas that we all discuss on this forum. It goes(generally speaking) Kant>Jung>Socionics. Many of the conclusions he has reached resemble my own, so I believe in him. As far as my knowledge goes, Kant is the LII distiller of psychological functions. Jung 'stood on his shoulders'.

I agree that one does not need to be pedantic or involved in esoteric ideas to identify types, or functions. But it takes a cooperation of some sorts of mind to make these observations into a penetrating science.

I think that time is the result of some kind of interaction of transcendental(separate from the external sense) laws. I think that time is the interaction of the laws of functional analysis. The laws are undeniable.
What do you think of this idea? If we are to determine what Ni is? Perhaps we should not view it as a 'standalone' Perhaps we should view it through the eyes of socionics.

Augusta believed that each individual had a 'lopsided' psyche. That each of up were incomplete. That the fundamental is that each is incomplete without our dual. Intertype relations..especially *dual* relations is the basis of socionics.

I think we could quibble over the semantics of Ni (etc) but probably still be talking about essentially the same thing (of course, unless our understanding were to be far too removed from what it actually is)

So with the basis of socionics in mind..duality. I suggest we describe Ni more correctly in terms of how it relates to it's seeking function which is Ni/Se.

By the socionic model, one is not complete without the other. Lets make it whole, just like our actual socionic definition.

(We can also quibble about Ni defining also, if/because it amuses us, among other things indeed, to do so, I guess?)

Last edited by Cyclops; 26/04/2008 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #25  
Old 26/04/2008, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Epic View Post
I mentioned Kant because Kant is the foundation of of all of these ideas that we all discuss on this forum. It goes(generally speaking) Kant>Jung>Socionics. Many of the conclusions he has reached resemble my own, so I believe in him. As far as my knowledge goes, Kant is the LII distiller of psychological functions. Jung 'stood on his shoulders'.
Kant wrote a lot. What Kant readings do you recommend specifically (read Kant time ago and forgot, any specific Socionics related readings you recommend/love?).

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Originally Posted by Epic View Post
I think that time is the result of some kind of interaction of transcendental(separate from the external sense) laws. I think that time is the interaction of the laws of functional analysis. The laws are undeniable.
The perception of time is missing in Socionics (how does time perception work for different types?). The essential memory function is missing in Socionics as well.
What do you make of that?
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  #26  
Old 26/04/2008, 08:54 PM
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Kant wrote a lot. What Kant readings do you recommend specifically (read Kant time ago and forgot, any specific Socionics related readings you recommend/love?).
This means you know nothing about him but unlike me you haven't the stones to say it. Nice.

Quote:
The perception of time is missing in Socionics (how does time perception work for different types?). The essential memory function is missing in Socionics as well.
What do you make of that?
That perception of time is missing? I make it out to be nonsensical.

The essential memory function is missing? Do you even know yourself what you are talking about yourself?

What does Te do, what does Si do? They are involved in remembering things. For instance, an Si will remember (as an example) what it was wearing..how those clothes felt, how it's body felt, how it felt about it's surroundings in relation to itself, it's footfalls, the rhythm of it's footfalls, when recalling a specific event, even when many many years ago.

So it appears my turn to laugh at you.
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  #27  
Old 26/04/2008, 09:45 PM
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You do not know what I know, or how I know it. Therefore your comment about my IQ is irrelevant, your question is of more interest to me, but your (logically assumed inappropriate) language leaves me less inclined to answer.
It is ok. You dont have to answer. I am sorry if i offended you. But why should I treat you nice if you behave like a moron? Honesty survives.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
It also might want to make me a cup of tea. What do you mean by processing? Also, is it relevant if it processes whatever 'it' is in the same way if it has different things to process? .
1235

Maybe your Si processor tells you

1235 has something to do with 11

or maybe your ni Ni processor tells you

1235 feels like 1827125 (do you see the operator?)

Honourably, obviously the Si processor is really stupid in this example. But this is not generally the typical case. Si can be tremendously more stupid than this of course.

The input is the same but the output is different. Our 5 senses are very similar if youd ask me. Their wiring is probably unique from person to person but the wiring might follow the laws of Socionics as a first approximation.

I can not see why the input raw data should be that fundamentally different from person to person.

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This means you know nothing about him but unlike me you haven't the stones to say it. Nice.


That perception of time is missing? I make it out to be nonsensical.

The essential memory function is missing? Do you even know yourself what you are talking about yourself?

What does Te do, what does Si do? They are involved in remembering things. For instance, an Si will remember (as an example) what it was wearing..how those clothes felt, how it's body felt, how it felt about it's surroundings in relation to itself, it's footfalls, the rhythm of it's footfalls, when recalling a specific event, even when many many years ago.

So it appears my turn to laugh at you.
I will do my best to try to make you understand the process of abstract thinking as I am 100% sure -abstract thinking can be taught to you as well.

Right now you are a duck swimming in a pond feeding on bread from total strangers.

Last edited by Vibration; 26/04/2008 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #28  
Old 26/04/2008, 09:46 PM
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It is ok. You dont have to answer. I am sorry if i offended you. But why should I treat you nice if you behave like a moron? Honesty survives.



1235

Maybe your Si processor tells you

1235 has something to do with 11

or maybe your ni Ni processor tells you

1235 feels like 1827125 (do you see the operator?)

Honourably, obviously the Si processor is really stupid in this example. But this is not generally the typical case. Si can be tremendously more stupid than this of course.

The input is the same but the output is different. Our 5 senses are very similar if youd ask me. Their wiring is probably unique from person to person but the wiring might follow the laws of Socionics as a first approximation.

I can not see why the input raw data should be that fundamentally different from person to person.
This (quote from you, and I feel some of your others) has nothing to do with socionics. I apologise if I'm not able to put the information across to you in a way you understand, but I guess I assume you are someone who wants to learn, but maybe what you are is someone who wants to talk about things that sound good, but do not really mean anything (which is how I am seeing your posts here..style over content) Fine. I do not criticise you for the sake of it, because I feel I provide you with relevant socionic knowledge in my posts in reply to you here.

What I am only seeing from you, is attempted jibes at my intelligence, and pettyness. And even if they are justified, which they're not, because you started attacking me personally because I didn't agree with you, anyway, what you say.. they still don't relate to socionics, which is our purpose here (at least is it? On a socionic forum?)

God bless you though. If you believe in god take it literaly, if you do not then metaphorically, or if you just sneezed use it for that purpose also (which is something we say here after sneezing) I wish you all the best and I wish you no hard feelings. But of course in view of everything here, I still don't have to like you, do I?
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  #29  
Old 26/04/2008, 10:01 PM
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What I am only seeing from you, is attempted jibes at my intelligence, and pettyness. And even if they are justified, which they're not, because you started attacking me personally because I didn't agree with you, anyway, what you say.. they still don't relate to socionics, which is our purpose here (at least is it? On a socionic forum?)
You are right and it is personal. Id like to broaden it though. Thing is I dislike ISTp generally so dont take it generally personally. You are just one out of many.

Did you find the operator yet?
Need help?
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  #30  
Old 26/04/2008, 10:02 PM
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I have a very simple way of understanding Ne vs Ni.

Ne = Discovery of causation
Ni = Prediction

And I think this in a way relates to what SG said earlier.

Because Ne is about discovering the unknown, what is currently unseen.
While Ni is about prediction based on what is known based on what is seen.
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  #31  
Old 26/04/2008, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
You are right and it is personal. Id like to broaden it though. Thing is I dislike ISTp generally so dont take it generally personally. You are just one out of many.

Did you find the operator yet?
Need help?
Thats ok At least I know for sure where I stand

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Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
I have a very simple way of understanding Ne vs Ni.

Ne = Discovery of causation
Ni = Prediction

And I think this in a way relates to what SG said earlier.

Because Ne is about discovering the unknown, what is currently unseen.
While Ni is about prediction based on what is known based on what is seen.
Sounds good to me.

Last edited by Cyclops; 26/04/2008 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #32  
Old 26/04/2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
I have a very simple way of understanding Ne vs Ni.

Ne = Discovery of causation
Ni = Prediction

And I think this in a way relates to what SG said earlier.

Because Ne is about discovering the unknown, what is currently unseen.
While Ni is about prediction based on what is known based on what is seen.
I like this. Ne discovers the root -the axioms. If you start at the root almost anything can follow.

If we start from whats known that kind of prediction is more reliable/safe, because it is based on conservative grounds -knowledge -info rather than hunches -data.

Are you sure youre ENTp? Id say you might be INTj. You express yourself like an INTj sometimes.

INTjs are brief, compact, they dont elaborate. they dont care.
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  #33  
Old 26/04/2008, 11:01 PM
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I like this. Ne discovers the root -the axioms. If you start at the root almost anything can follow.

If we start from whats known that kind of prediction is more reliable/safe, because it is based on conservative grounds -knowledge -info rather than hunches -data.
Flatulent nonsense.
Quote:
Are you sure youre ENTp? Id say you might be INTj. You express yourself like an INTj sometimes.

INTjs are brief, compact, they dont elaborate. they dont care.
Aha ok, someone gives you info and you either [a) attack or b) question] their type. What will "c)" be?

He just knows what he's talking about, unlike you. And I'm sure he's sure he's ENTp.

INTj's may *sometimes* seem like you say, but that gives little hint into the thinking they put in, discarding so many incorrect ideas before they speak. Infact this can also lead to INTj's being vague, because sometimes they are not sure of what they think..when for instance
it comes to what they like, their preferences.

Many types can be precise in their speech. The ISTp for instance.
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  #34  
Old 26/04/2008, 11:14 PM
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Flatulent nonsense.

Aha ok, someone gives you info and you either [a) attack or b) question] their type. What will "c)" be?
You will be surprised by c).

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
He just knows what he's talking about, unlike you. And I'm sure he's sure he's ENTp.
Of course you are.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
INTj's may *sometimes* seem like you say, but that gives little hint into the thinking they put in, discarding so many incorrect ideas before they speak. Infact this can also lead to INTj's being vague, because sometimes they are not sure of what they think..when for instance
it comes to what they like, their preferences.
I agree.

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Many types can be precise in their speech. The ISTp for instance.
I dont know about your preciseness. Are you getting warm?
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  #35  
Old 26/04/2008, 11:22 PM
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You will be surprised by c).
Assumptions make..
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I agree.
Stranger things have happened.
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I dont know about your preciseness. Are you getting warm?
How refreshing. We are getting warm.
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  #36  
Old 26/04/2008, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
Kant wrote a lot. What Kant readings do you recommend specifically (read Kant time ago and forgot, any specific Socionics related readings you recommend/love?).



The perception of time is missing in Socionics (how does time perception work for different types?). The essential memory function is missing in Socionics as well.
What do you make of that?
To answer your first question: The "Critique of Pure Reason" is the work I reference. It is a tough read, though, and will take much dedication. I don't think it is possible to passively read any of this work. It must be studied.

@ Your second: Without using alot of intuitive fluff, I can't answer that question right now. I'll think about it and give a response later.


I will also respond to some other things said by Cyclops and Hkkmr here because this is an interesting discussion and I have some free time.
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  #37  
Old 27/04/2008, 02:07 AM
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I like this. Ne discovers the root -the axioms. If you start at the root almost anything can follow.

If we start from whats known that kind of prediction is more reliable/safe, because it is based on conservative grounds -knowledge -info rather than hunches -data..
I think this is pretty good way of explaining why I said what I said.

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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
Are you sure youre ENTp? Id say you might be INTj. You express yourself like an INTj sometimes.

INTjs are brief, compact, they dont elaborate. they dont care.
Why am I a ENTp vs INTj? Why do I think I'm ENTp? I am not sure how to describe it via description but based on my theoretical understanding I should be ENTp.

As for some reasions. What I do I mostly process data, factual data via reading, scanning the internet, discussion with others. What I mostly do with the data that I gather is process the inconsistancies, maybe even consistant inconsistancy, attempt to understand patterns of variation. I describe these inconsistancies and patterns thru ideas and concepts that I associate with words and by associating them with words, associate them with existing ideas.

So what I am doing mostly is... process , discover patterns and inconsistancies in the variation that I am observation, often involving the same topic. And talking about these patterns of variation, what I might loosely term causal hypothesis in the form of a idea .

As for how this works in the Model A block, I am mostly working from my Id/8th function for the acquisition of factual information and data, and converting the information into my base ego function(1st function).

So -> .

As for , I'm not sure how to explain this understanding of mine.
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  #38  
Old 27/04/2008, 08:26 AM
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You know, i've thought about this. For someone to question a persons IQ, to make a post about ISTp's being wannabe INTp's - because the person states that they have a different understanding of a subject - a different view - as opposed to engaging in any productive debate - I find to be disgusting. To then proceed to say that they dislike ALL people of a certain type, because of their type is nothing short of racism, which is disgusting.
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  #39  
Old 27/04/2008, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
As for some reasions. What I do I mostly process data, factual data via reading, scanning the internet, discussion with others. What I mostly do with the data that I gather is process the inconsistancies, maybe even consistant inconsistancy, attempt to understand patterns of variation. I describe these inconsistancies and patterns thru ideas and concepts that I associate with words and by associating them with words, associate them with existing ideas.

So what I am doing mostly is... process , discover patterns and inconsistancies in the variation that I am observation, often involving the same topic. And talking about these patterns of variation, what I might loosely term causal hypothesis in the form of a idea .

As for how this works in the Model A block, I am mostly working from my Id/8th function for the acquisition of factual information and data, and converting the information into my base ego function(1st function).
Yes this is similar to me. I always look for a pattern in order to be able to understand something. When translating my understanding to other people I lean on concepts that I try to translate into words. Finding the common denominator/operator for recognition/development is everything isn’t it?
About this Te thing: Have noticed that I am unable to remember details unless I understand the relation between things. Language is a terrible subject for example. How do you imprint 50 new words in Spanish for example? Impossible for me unless I really need them for some extremely important reason. I am also very interested in inconsistencies because they appear novel/mysterious and inspire me. I guess both consistencies and inconsistencies come natural but although consistencies might be faschinating inconsistencies could open the door for the real new.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
This (quote from you, and I Feel some of your others) has nothing to do with socionics. I apologise if I'm not able to put the information across to you in a way you understand, but I guess I assume you are someone who wants to learn, but maybe what you are is someone who wants to talk about things that sound good, but do not really mean anything (which is how I am seeing your posts here..style over content) fine. I do not criticise you for the sake of it, because I Feel I provide you with relevant socionic knowledge in my posts in reply to you here.

What I am only Sieing from you, is attempted jibes at my intelligence, and pettyness. And even if they are justified, which they're not, because you started attacking me personally because I didn't agree with you, anyway, what you say.. they still don't relate to socionics, which is our purpose here (at least is it? On a socionic forum?)

God bless you though. If you believe in god take it literaly, if you do not then metaphorically, or if you just sNeezed use it for that purpose also (which is something we say here after sneezing) I wish you all the best and I wish you no hard Feelings. But of course in view of everything here, I still don't have to like you, do I?

You know, i've thought about this. For someone to question a persons IQ, to make a post about ISTp's being wannabe INTp's - because the person states that they have a different understanding of a subject - a different view - as opposed to engaging in any productive debate - I find to be disgusting. To then proceed to say that they dislike ALL people of a certain type, because of their type is nothing short of racism, which is disgusting.
Is this a good example of possible outcomes when your Fe takes over? Anyway, it is interesting in so many different ways! It does not converge really, now does it (but then again why should it?)?
I wonder how I work under similar conditions.

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Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
1235 feels like 1827125 (do you see the operator?)
Did you find the operator yet?
Need help?
Come on Cyclops! This is just forum verse anyway!

Well how do you arrive at 1827125 starting from 1235?



Tip: It has nothing to do with telephones and all good things come i three.

Last edited by Vibration; 27/04/2008 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #40  
Old 27/04/2008, 06:10 PM
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Yes this is similar to me. I always look for a pattern in order to be able to understand something. When translating my understanding to other people I lean on concepts that I try to translate into words. Finding the common denominator/operator for recognition/development is everything isn’t it?
About this Te thing: Have noticed that I am unable to remember details unless I understand the relation between things. Language is a terrible subject for example. How do you imprint 50 new words in Spanish for example? Impossible for me unless I really need them for some extremely important reason. I am also very interested in inconsistencies because they appear novel/mysterious and inspire me. I guess both consistencies and inconsistencies come natural but although consistencies might be faschinating inconsistencies could open the door for the real new.
I hate rote memorization sucks, I'm hate math.. but I love solving problems.
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