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  #41  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:28 PM
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I think Ed Norton resembles the poker player Daniel Negreanu on V.I. to such an extent that it is reasonable to at least contemplate the possibility that they might be the same type. And Negreanu is clearly not an INTp, and he is clearly not an ENTj. I suggest that ENTp is more likely than INTp for both of them. What are you counter arguments to that hypothesis?


Maybe the descriptions of the four temperaments are not good enough to enable people to see the differences clearly. But I can usually see the temperamental differences between real life ENTjs and INTps very clearly. One of the most visable differences is that ENTjs tend to be workaholics, whereas INTps tend to more of lazybones.
Yeah, you're right, Negreany doesn't quite look like INTp or ENTj, but he doesn't look similar to Ed Norton either in terms of VI, well at least to me.

Ok, I can give you ENTj/INTp work/lazy thing, but take ENFj vs INFp and your theory already spectacularly fails as for these types it could be almost opposite.
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  #42  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:31 PM
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Explain to me how does making a relationship with others sharpen your dominant function? I think it depends.

If the person for instance the person you are having a friendly relationship with strongly represses your dominant function and you strongly repress his dominant one then the dominants will feel threatened. Why? well simply because the strength of a function of a group equals the sum of the strengths of the functions of the individuals. (why? this is also something that has to be reflected). For instance suppose that the strength of your Se is 80% and the strength of the Se of your friend is 30% than the strength of the Se of the group will be 55%. If you prefer Se then you are going to view the lack of Se in the group as threatening, so you are going to double your efforts in order to compensate the lack of Se in the group.

But suppose for instance that I am having a friendship with an ESFp, then Se is strong enough in the group. I will therefore do some effort to compensate for the lack of Ti. If the relationship lasts for a longtime I am going to end up thinking I am an ISTj.

What do you think?

In regards to favourable relations, so the theory goes behind the practice. People whom we get on well with have a need for our main two funtions (ego block) as they would tend to have at least one of these functions in their super id block (these are functions six and seven - unconcious functions which are said to be receiving - the weekest know as the dual seeking accepting function [your strongest function is the the weakest accepting function of your dual - hence favourability here] the other is largely responsible for producing your hidden agenda)

So yes - in regards to sharpening your main two functions - it is good to be around people who have an inherent need for these functions - the positive encouragement causes you to use them more, reinforcing them and 'sharpening' them.

In unfavourable relations, your main two functions are not required by the other party. So as you try to take in and produce information via your main and creative functions, the other person does not appreciate the information you produce. This can be quite hurtful - as in effect - what you are good at, is, sometimes at its harshest, is ridiculed. Bad relations dont make me 'into' another type. They just make me depressed and unnapreciated for the talents I think I have.

So then Whats then a person to do hehe?!

If anything tho (always looking for a positive) I realise that poor, close, psychological relations, although to a certain point have been damaging to me, looking back on it (now objectively) I can see that what I am producing is not appreciated - at least to a certain point, I know whats not good for me. I also know for the future to pick up on certain signals, and just not get involved with that person .. cause the more I do .. the more it will just make me, basically, unhappy.

This is how, I reckon, good relations will sharpen your main functions, and poor relations will at least let you look back to realise what your main functions are - because they are/have not been appreciated !

I have not redrafted this, but these are my thoughts. Does this make sense, or where you getting at something else ?

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Originally Posted by complicater-complexer View Post
Explain to me how does making a relationship with others sharpen your dominant function? I think it depends.

If the person for instance the person you are having a friendly relationship with strongly represses your dominant function and you strongly repress his dominant one then the dominants will feel threatened. Why? well simply because the strength of a function of a group equals the sum of the strengths of the functions of the individuals. (why? this is also something that has to be reflected). For instance suppose that the strength of your Se is 80% and the strength of the Se of your friend is 30% than the strength of the Se of the group will be 55%. If you prefer Se then you are going to view the lack of Se in the group as threatening, so you are going to double your efforts in order to compensate the lack of Se in the group.

But suppose for instance that I am having a friendship with an ESFp, then Se is strong enough in the group. I will therefore do some effort to compensate for the lack of Ti. If the relationship lasts for a longtime I am going to end up thinking I am an ISTj.

What do you think?

In regards to favourable relations, so the theory goes behind the practice. People whom we get on well with have a need for our main two funtions (ego block) as they would tend to have at least one of these functions in their super id block (these are functions six and seven - unconcious functions which are said to be receiving - the weekest know as the dual seeking accepting function [your strongest function is the the weakest accepting function of your dual - hence favourability here] the other is largely responsible for producing your hidden agenda)

So yes - in regards to sharpening your main two functions - it is good to be around people who have an inherent need for these functions - the positive encouragement causes you to use them more, reinforcing them and 'sharpening' them.

In unfavourable relations, your main two functions are not required by the other party. So as you try to take in and produce information via your main and creative functions, the other person does not appreciate the information you produce. This can be quite hurtful - as in effect - what you are good at, is, sometimes at its harshest, is ridiculed. Bad relations dont make me 'into' another type. They just make me depressed and unnapreciated for the talents I think I have.

So then Whats then a person to do hehe?!

If anything tho (always looking for a positive) I realise that poor, close, psychological relations, although to a certain point have been damaging to me, looking back on it (now objectively) I can see that what I am producing is not appreciated - at least to a certain point, I know whats not good for me. I also know for the future to pick up on certain signals, and just not get involved with that person .. cause the more I do .. the more it will just make me, basically, unhappy.

This is how, I reckon, good relations will sharpen your main functions, and poor relations will at least let you look back to realise what your main functions are - because they are/have not been appreciated !

I have not redrafted this, but these are my thoughts. Does this make sense, or where you getting at something else ?

Last edited by Cyclops; 13/12/2007 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #43  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:42 PM
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Your argument is very shitty. If one looks like another, it is because they have some common physical traits. But how do you know what are the traits that determine the type of someone?
By practical training. Start out by reading these of SG's articles:

http://www.socionics.com/advan/vi/vi.htm

http://www.socionics.com/articles/notes.html

http://www.socionics.com/advan/methods.htm

Then you could practice on his "Test your V.I. skills" until you "get it". And after that you should calibrate your understanding by comparing with real life people whose types you have identified correctly by other methods than V.I.
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  #44  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:44 PM
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Then you could practice on his "Test your V.I. skills" until you "get it".
You mean until you remember it? Well that is not the best way to learn VI by far.
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  #45  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:47 PM
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You mean until you remember it? Well that is not the best way to learn VI by far.
It is not nearly enough in itself, but it can be a start, at least for those who otherwise would not take more than the first step and then give up because they think it is impossible to see the patterns.
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  #46  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:56 PM
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VI helps you to conjecture. It requires a lot of practice and even if you are a professional you can make a mistake. For instance the first time SG saw a picture for me he said that I could be an ISTp. By the way I remarked that several ESTp pictures where added to the site not a long time after I was typed.
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  #47  
Old 13/12/2007, 02:08 PM
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VI helps you to conjecture.
It can also help you to rule out some types as impossible, especially if you include body type theory in V.I.
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  #48  
Old 13/12/2007, 02:59 PM
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It is not nearly enough in itself, but it can be a start, at least for those who otherwise would not take more than the first step and then give up because they think it is impossible to see the patterns.
Well, it says 'test' for a reason. You do not 'practice' on tests.
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  #49  
Old 13/12/2007, 04:35 PM
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Well, it says 'test' for a reason. You do not 'practice' on tests.
How you intended it is your business. The test improves your V.I. skills anyway if you try to memorize the faces and get an intuitive feel for the similarities and differences. I have compared them with reality, so I know what I'm talking about.
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  #50  
Old 13/12/2007, 06:05 PM
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How you intended it is your business. The test improves your V.I. skills anyway if you try to memorize the faces and get an intuitive feel for the similarities and differences. I have compared them with reality, so I know what I'm talking about.
Obviously not if you think that Negreany and Norton are the same type.
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  #51  
Old 13/12/2007, 08:12 PM
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Obviously not if you think that Negreany and Norton are the same type.
I didn't say that I think that they are the same type. I said that they resemble each other "to such an extent that it is reasonable to at least contemplate the possibility that they might be the same type". That's a big difference. I don't know enough about Norton to have a stong opinion on his type. Why do you think that he might be an INTp?
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  #52  
Old 13/12/2007, 09:03 PM
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I didn't say that I think that they are the same type. I said that they resemble each other "to such an extent that it is reasonable to at least contemplate the possibility that they might be the same type". That's a big difference. I don't know enough about Norton to have a stong opinion on his type. Why do you think that he might be an INTp?
He's got the look, what else do you expect me to say? He also reminds me of ENTj a bit. But since you brought up this question, I did a bit more digging and this is why I think he is more of an INTp.
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  #53  
Old 13/12/2007, 10:09 PM
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I did not mean it in that way. It is just when it started lots of usual members had remarkably identified their types more or less correctly, with very little knowledge of socionics. Now they are all "experts" in quantum socionics, that get special kicks from public doubting of own or someone else's type.
Well I agree I felt good about expressing doubt about my type in public (Im such a narcissistic prick). I also felt identification with Epic doing the same thing (not implying Epic is narcissistic). If Epic would have claimed hes ABSOLUTE sure of his type I would have felt doubt about him being ENTp.

ENTps doubt. Doubt is a driver for creativity. If youre absolute certain about something your brain dies in that particular area. (you are a universal zombie Prom)

I am 99% sure Epic contemplated over his musical and drawing abilities and put those together with the fact his studying psychology. Psychology is typical ENFp, and art as well. So perhaps I am an ENFp Epic thought (temporarily forgetting ALL conclusions he made over years and years and years -just like I do all the time). But this is how ENTps are I guess. (I am just speculating Epic. Please forgive me and feel free to speculate about me. Only very few things offend me.) ENTps doubt they dont trust they speculate they fantisize imagine things they forget. Over and over an over again eternally...
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  #54  
Old 13/12/2007, 10:23 PM
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ENTps doubt. Doubt is a driver for creativity. If youre absolute certain about something your brain dies in that particular area. (you are a universal zombie Prom)
Okay, in that case I am only 99.97 % certain that I am an INTp and about 99.98 % certain that you are an ENTp. I think that I am 96.96 % certain that I always choose the most likely of the alternatives I am 95 % sure that I am aware of. And I am 99.99 % certain that you must have grounds for doubt and that in some cases it is not reasonable to be in doubt, for example about your type, Vibe.

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So perhaps I am an ENFp Epic thought (temporarily forgetting ALL conclusions he made over years and years and years -just like I do all the time). But this is how ENTps are I guess.
Yes. Read about the quadras and wake up! You are so Merry and Alpha that I can sense the smell all the way to Sweden.
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  #55  
Old 14/12/2007, 02:00 PM
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You are so Merry and Alpha that I can sense the smell all the way to Sweden.
Is that cos Alpha don't wash?
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  #56  
Old 14/12/2007, 02:48 PM
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Tell me SG, didn't you start getting an idea about his type? Something is telling me that he could be F. What do you think?
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  #57  
Old 14/12/2007, 03:20 PM
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Is that cos Alpha don't wash?
I don't know. You tell me. Do ENTps too "deprive themselves of a good bath and can happily live in a pigsty when nobody watches"?
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  #58  
Old 14/12/2007, 04:01 PM
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Yes. Read about the quadras and wake up! You are so Merry and Alpha that I can sense the smell all the way to Sweden.
I need a good link about quadras. Do you have one?

This smell thing applies to me. I am only clean and tidy when I know others are watching me.
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  #59  
Old 14/12/2007, 04:13 PM
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Well I agree I felt good about expressing doubt about my type in public (Im such a narcissistic prick). I also felt identification with Epic doing the same thing (not implying Epic is narcissistic).
Ha. Its true, I am. And I love the attention I'm getting.


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I am 99% sure Epic contemplated over his musical and drawing abilities and put those together with the fact his studying psychology. Psychology is typical ENFp, and art as well. So perhaps I am an ENFp Epic thought (temporarily forgetting ALL conclusions he made over years and years and years -just like I do all the time). But this is how ENTps are I guess. (I am just speculating Epic. Please forgive me and feel free to speculate about me. Only very few things offend me.) ENTps doubt they dont trust they speculate they fantisize imagine things they forget. Over and over an over again eternally...
All of those assumptions about me are correct and I agree with your points.

You already touched on the positives of how doubt can feed creativity. A problem with ENXp doubt, however, is that it can lead a person to constant soul searching.

ENFps, from my limited observations, do this all of the time. It works for them because they can handle the need to adapt to new groups.

If an ENTp soul searches they are prone to isolate themselves and face many obstacles generating a stable environment to support themselves while they carry out this inner search (and that doesn't help their ability to attract love). Though they have alot of ideas they like to develop in their free time, they can't develop them if they don't have some sort of stable base.

This is why I have concluded that I must stick to one thing and create a stable "home" for my physical as well as spiritual self. Then I can have time for my ideas and maybe even find a way to make use of them.

On a side note: I believe that comparative relations (such as my relation to ENFp) can serve as valuable teaching tools. The interest in the "powers" of the comparative can be inspiring and influential. I think that such influences can cause a questioning of one's fundamental strengths.

I used to work with an ENFp and we would exchange drawings which would attempt to capture the essence of phenomenon involving people or the past.

For example, he drew a simple picture of a lone, scrawny child. Underneath the drawing was the subtitle, in quotes "he's so awkward."

One of my drawings had a picture of a lethargic, depressive person with the subtitle "I have it in me, I know I do" (as though he was referring to perhaps courage or value) beside this drawing was a separate drawing of a skeleton with the subtitle "This is in him"

But this is the only area where the two of us really "connected" in all other regards we made almost opposite judgements.

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This smell thing applies to me. I am only clean and tidy when I know others are watching me.
I developed some sort of complex in preadolescence involving a debilitating fear that I had an odor.

Now that I have overcome this fear I don't much care if I smell or not. I don't much care about the mold growing in my shower, either.

Last edited by Epic; 14/12/2007 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #60  
Old 14/12/2007, 04:37 PM
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I don't know. You tell me. Do ENTps too "deprive themselves of a good bath and can happily live in a pigsty when nobody watches"?
My mistake...It was a joke, Prom.
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