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  #21  
Old 12/12/2007, 01:20 AM
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Mirror? Yeah, could be confusing. For example I still don't know if Denzel is INTj or ENTp. I have plenty examples of that. You see, unless you meet someone in person, this could always be the case.
You can always try to determine the persons temperament independently of the functions, and the person himself should never be in doubt if he understand the four temperaments (and you have yourself stated that it doesn't make much sense to be in doubt about more than one of the four dichotomies ...).
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  #22  
Old 12/12/2007, 01:44 AM
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spend less time watching television and playing computer games or getting drunk, or partying; or whatever it is you do that fragments you into different spaces and times, with contradictory qualities. then, when it is just you, and you alone- then you will feel, in silent reflection and contemplation, what it is you really want to do with your life. that is what you really are.
I don't do any of the things you have listed. At all. And I never will. A large degree of my time is spend in silent reflection.
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  #23  
Old 12/12/2007, 07:04 AM
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You can always try to determine the persons temperament independently of the functions, and the person himself should never be in doubt if he understand the four temperaments (and you have yourself stated that it doesn't make much sense to be in doubt about more than one of the four dichotomies ...).
What the... I do not agree with what I said...or you think I said...or... Listen, Prom, I do not recall stating anything like that about dichotomies because this is simply not true (well just to make it plain simple - I never said that). If you referring to S/N or F/T ambiguity, then I never said one could be in doubt only about 1 dichotomy.

While as it seems that being in doubt about S/N and F/T are mutually exclusive, there are also E/I and j/p that are pretty much independent of the rest. So you CAN be in doubt about let's say F/T AND on top of that be in doubt about E/I and j/p at the same time. This is an extreme example nevertheless not impossible.

Then again, if you are so confident in your typing abilities, perhaps you would like to share the 4 temperaments you understand so beautifully, i. e. Ej, Ep, Ij and Ip and how to confidently recognise them.

I underlined this so that you understand you are expected not to skip this request.
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  #24  
Old 12/12/2007, 11:17 AM
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Complictor-complexor, and others whom are contributing, if I may add to your discussion?

I personally have found it useful to interact with others to help me find my type (there has been at least as many negatives as positives with this..but as with everything it is always a learning curve!) At one point, personally I thought I was ESTj!..although a somewhat miscontrued one (I think, in retrospect, this was created in a work environ [always a tricky situ to use..as others there, as they are *not* necessarilty being themselves] but as a mirror relation..it is easy to understand why I would think that)

So to help, I would suggest spending time with others..reflect on the intertype relationships with the others, and indeed report back here with your new, and other insights. I do hope that you find a type which you can therefore feel you can identify with. (And it will happen, I will say)

So yes, practicality is something I can be good at, so I ask, .. Is this useful?

The problem is that you need to be careful and make sure that you know the type of others.
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Old 12/12/2007, 02:47 PM
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My mood varies from time to time. There have been times where I have felt like I could explode. People around me sometimes can notice it happening before I do. I have alot of tensions about other people that can build up if things are not stacking in my favor. Romance is the worst. I used to believe I was a sort of romantic, but I became disillusioned after a couple romantic failures. I now avoid intimacy and close friendships.

But are we ENTps/ILEs? I have my doubts sometimes, but I always come back to that type. I am, even when i have feelings of incompetence or failure, always drawn eventually to the systems and structures and am always pulled away from the idea of relaxing and being around people.
Yes I recognize this very well. I am also not aware of how crazy I can look sometimes when I’m thinking about something “unfair/unjust” that makes me furious inside. At those occasions I like to come up all different kinds of ideas for the ultimate revenge. Once I have figured out a completely absurd “nutcase revenge” I often laugh about the whole thing and my stupid behaviour and then I forget it, -but only for a short while... Are you the same? I have not always been like this, but I became like this after some bad experiences both in work and private life.

Love is another issue. ENTp’s are fragile creatures. I know several ENTp’s that are more or less completely paranoid (I am not one of them). They get extremely aware of only negative possibilities about people/society. For example “all women are crazy-no woman can be trusted –they all want to hurt you”, and great fear for new types of surveilance systems (cameras, transponder cards, fingerprinting, satellites etc). I know of only one ENTp that is normal, he lives in the countryside and has a stable relationship with his dual.

Sometimes I think I am ESTp or ENFp or even ENTj! ENFp more often than ESTp. But I also always tend to come back to the ENTp type by comparison myself with people that I think are ENFp/ESTp/ENTj.
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  #26  
Old 12/12/2007, 03:52 PM
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Sometimes I think I am ESTp or ENFp or even ENTj! ENFp more often than ESTp. But I also always tend to come back to the ENTp type by comparison myself with people that I think are ENFp/ESTp/ENTj.
This could me misleading! Make sure you are comparing yourself with a lot of people having these types. There are 1001 ways to be of the same type.
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  #27  
Old 12/12/2007, 04:35 PM
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Yes I recognize this very well. I am also not aware of how crazy I can look sometimes when I’m thinking about something “unfair/unjust” that makes me furious inside. At those occasions I like to come up all different kinds of ideas for the ultimate revenge. Once I have figured out a completely absurd “nutcase revenge” I often laugh about the whole thing and my stupid behaviour and then I forget it, -but only for a short while... Are you the same? I have not always been like this, but I became like this after some bad experiences both in work and private life.

Love is another issue. ENTp’s are fragile creatures. I know several ENTp’s that are more or less completely paranoid (I am not one of them). They get extremely aware of only negative possibilities about people/society. For example “all women are crazy-no woman can be trusted –they all want to hurt you”, and great fear for new types of surveilance systems (cameras, transponder cards, fingerprinting, satellites etc). I know of only one ENTp that is normal, he lives in the countryside and has a stable relationship with his dual.

Sometimes I think I am ESTp or ENFp or even ENTj! ENFp more often than ESTp. But I also always tend to come back to the ENTp type by comparison myself with people that I think are ENFp/ESTp/ENTj.
I sometimes imagine revenge, or what I will say to people that aggravate or annoy me. But this is usually based on my own insecurities. Why else would I let someone get to me?

I avoid love or romance as much as possible and often disregard the frequent advances I get as, like you said, some sort of distrustful manipulation. I will think "she just wants to boost her ego. She wants to lead me in and get me to ask her out specifically so that she can have the satisfaction of turning me down." or that "she is just an impulsive moron" or "she is only considering you because she herself is insecure and projects her insecurities onto you; yet she is acting out the fantasy that she is, in fact, better, and is playing the role of the savior which she wishes would sweep her off her feet."

Unsure of your type? you don't want to become one of those people. get out while you still can.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Merkw View Post
I don't do any of the things you have listed. At all. And I never will. A large degree of my time is spend in silent reflection.
Though I think you are on a path toward self-destruction by studying this corrupt hodgepodge called "socionics" I still think maybe you might want to consider INFP.

Last edited by Epic; 12/12/2007 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #28  
Old 12/12/2007, 05:14 PM
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This could me misleading! Make sure you are comparing yourself with a lot of people having these types. There are 1001 ways to be of the same type.
Yes you are right. There are big variations within the same type. Some “ENTp” people I know are very analytical others are extremely vague and intuitive and almost idiotic. Some ENTps like to make a lot of jokes others are are very serious. But I get the same basic feeling with all ENTp types. I feel very safe and understood when I speak to ENTps.

All ENTps I met are curious about how things work –not the small details but rather the small functions of a larger machines. It takes seconds for an ENTp to understand “roughly” the interaction between the functional details of a car engine (even if the ENTp is not interested in car engines). Having understood roughly the engine the ENTp can then easily apply this new engine understanding in his own field of expertice. The most creative ENTps I have met are simply combining (read: “stealing”) concepts from various fields (anything goes! Socionics with cars/flowers/food/planets? Yes why not!). I have also seen how poorly developed ENTps can accelerate tremendously when they realize they have this intrinsic capacity of cross-combining the functionalities of things and more importantly, that other people for some reason seem to appreciate it! (ENTps love to be loved)...

ENFps also have some of this cross combining capacity but they don’t seem very interested in technical things or to apply their knowledge and build new “machines”, although I know ENFps that are quantum chemists, computer modelling scientists...

ESTps tend to combine what they see with their own eyes –what’s right in front of them. They are also very focused on small tiny details and they can ask questions forever about the small details.

ENTjs are quite innovative but they are not that fascinated by weird new things they are more conservative and really like to use what is already out there on the market. ENTjs want to know the facts. They also trust the facts and authorities. They want proof but they don’t care if they don’t understand the proof or not.

How could this text end up like this?
Anyway, I still not sure if I am ENTp or not.

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I sometimes imagine revenge, or what I will say to people that aggravate or annoy me. But this is usually based on my own insecurities. Why else would I let someone get to me?
Exactly.

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I avoid love or romance as much as possible and often disregard the frequent advances I get as, like you said, some sort of distrustful manipulation. I will think "she just wants to boost her ego. She wants to lead me in and get me to ask her out specifically so that she can have the satisfaction of turning me down." or that "she is just an impulsive moron" or "she is only considering you because she herself is insecure and projects her insecurities onto you; yet she is acting out the fantasy that she is, in fact, better, and is playing the role of the savior which she wishes would sweep her off her feet."..
Haha!! So true. You're not alone.

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Unsure of your type? you don't want to become one of those people. get out while you still can..
We are probably the same type. For what it's worth... I still enjoy Socionics. It provides some explanation to many of the idiotic things that happens at my work place. It also provides a way to apply the understanding.

Last edited by Vibration; 12/12/2007 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #29  
Old 12/12/2007, 08:18 PM
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Anyway, I still not sure if I am ENTp or not.
Oh, god... the16types is that way ->

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  #30  
Old 12/12/2007, 08:43 PM
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There is a behaviour I remarked among two Ne people, I want to know whether this is common for Nes.

One of them (the english teacher I had at high school for the two years before the last) is a female ENFp. She had the habit of saying :"between quotation marks" while talking (meaning that one of the words she is saying has to be put between quotations) and draws the quotation marks with her hand.

The other one (which is my advisor and I am taking a number theory course right now) is a male ENTp. When writing on the board he puts a lot of words between quotations. And even while talking... he once said:"to solve this you can divide by x, of course QUOTE AND QUOTE, which means you can multiply by the inverse.

Is that something common to Nes?
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  #31  
Old 12/12/2007, 10:13 PM
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Oh, god... the16types is that way ->

Don't listen to him, SG. I can assure you that he is an ENTp. I am willing to put all my money at stake on the truth of that.

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Then again, if you are so confident in your typing abilities, perhaps you would like to share the 4 temperaments you understand so beautifully, i. e. Ej, Ep, Ij and Ip and how to confidently recognise them.
I haven't said that they are that very easy to recognize, but an Ej is clearly different from an Ip in typical behaviours and attitudes, don't you agree? I usually link to the following temperament description. There might be others that are even better, but I find it illuminating (second post, translation by another forum member of an estonian text, don't remember the author): http://www.the16types.info/forums/vi...c+temperaments

Last edited by Prometheus; 12/12/2007 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #32  
Old 12/12/2007, 11:22 PM
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I haven't said that they are that very easy to recognize, but an Ej is clearly different from an Ip in typical behaviours and attitudes, don't you agree? I usually link to the following temperament description. There might be others that are even better, but I find it illuminating (second post, translation by another forum member of an estonian text, don't remember the author): http://www.the16types.info/forums/vi...c+temperaments
Very bad descriptions of those 4 temperaments. The author is probably unaware of the word 'laid-back'. I mean come on for Christ's sake, they are mostly laid-back vs preoccupied and mixture of both type of descriptions. This is bad this is really bad. And no, I don't think it is typically obvious how Ej differs from Ip. Ed Norton, INTp? ENTj? NOT obvious.
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  #33  
Old 13/12/2007, 12:01 AM
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Very bad descriptions of those 4 temperaments. The author is probably unaware of the word 'laid-back'. I mean come on for Christ's sake, they are mostly laid-back vs preoccupied and mixture of both type of descriptions. This is bad this is really bad. And no, I don't think it is typically obvious how Ej differs from Ip.
If you could link to a better description, or explain the most relevant differences in your own words, I would be very interested in reading it.

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Ed Norton, INTp? ENTj? NOT obvious.
Why any of those two types? I would be surprised if he turned out to be an INTp.
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  #34  
Old 13/12/2007, 03:08 AM
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Oh, god... the16types is that way ->

Haha. Your words suggest strongly I should know my type for sure? I am not part of that low IQ forum. Couldnt care less. I believe I am ENTp. I can hardly state I know anything at all about anything to a 100% degree and I deeply recent and love to smash**** people who make such statements. It would be weird if I am ENFp or ESTp or ENTj since it would change your type as well since I understand everything you say VERY quickly and VERY well. You have to be very closely related to my type simply. But why the **** should I be a dumb/rigid/static/immovable/frozen moron not able to be openminded about that my type is not the type I happen to think it is? People make mistakes all the time. Sometimes mistakes multiply and become gigantic.


As an example, You previousy mentioned your problems with accepting facts about USAs moon landing... I personally have difficulties with the 9/11 incident, there are several inconsistencies, although everything seems quite well explained "on the surface".

Last edited by Vibration; 13/12/2007 at 03:17 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #35  
Old 13/12/2007, 05:13 AM
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I relate a lot with Vibration and Epic in this thread, so there is some consistency to all this.
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  #36  
Old 13/12/2007, 12:15 PM
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The problem is that you need to be careful and make sure that you know the type of others.

Sorry for my delay in replying. What you say, this is true.

However, socionics is basically a study of 'regular joes' (as the expression is) .. ie people like you and me and other posters, asthe study of ordinary people and also crucially how these said people interact with each other.

What I have found for myself, on the analysis of several things. I have looked at the relations I have with my *close* friends .. and I notice a pattern. My closest friend I type as INFj - which is my activator. I would say that my relation with him is best described by the relation of activation. My other friends, on typing tend to fit into, also, Mirror. I am friends with another who has also developed an interest in socionics, and has typed themselves as SLI. This is also interesting as I would say that we think very much alike - and at times it is useful for bouncing my ideas and interactions with ... it is, on looking at the history of our friendship, akin to the closest I can get to observing myself, in that elusive 'third person' !

What I also do think, is that the ordinary person should be able to study socionics, their type and others, with reasonable accuracy. After all, if Augusta (I'll take the Westernised shortened name thank you !) Started out as an economist, with an interest in relationships, was able to, by her own perceptions, able to view certain psychological types, and how they correspond to close psychological relationships, (ie marriage) why cant the rest of do the same thing, at least to some extent ?

So yes, looking at my relations with friends, and the relations I've had with previous partners once the initial sexual 'buzz' has dissapated, my type relations would seem pretty accurate and come to the fore (the last one was ENTj)

So I would therefore say to establish your type, observe others relationships, your own and previous relationships (to some extent this is how socionics developed ?) To establish at least what is conducive and what isn;t conducive...ie you will at least be able to sharpen your dominant function to produce a clearer type. (I could be wrong but I somehow think you said at a previous time that you do not have too many actual physical interactions with people - I would say we need these to sharpen our dominant function - especially with those within our quadra)

Of course, this could all be wrong, but its just my theory/thinking on it at the mo

Thoughts ?
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Old 13/12/2007, 12:45 PM
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If you could link to a better description, or explain the most relevant differences in your own words, I would be very interested in reading it.


Why any of those two types? I would be surprised if he turned out to be an INTp.
I think he might be an INTp more than ENTj.

Ok, descriptions. Well, this is easy. If it would be possible to describe the obvious difference between E and I and j and p then I think it would also be possible to do the same for the combinations. However I don't think it is possible to describe them in terms of obvious behaviour.

I don't think I can do that, because what you require is universally applicable descriptions. I can't even say, well... mostly... or well... usually... No, this would be a lie, because we do not know, for example, how many introverted extroverts are out there, I mean E behaving like I or even p behaving like j. This is one of the instances where I will have to agree with WMWK, that the universal laws cannot be used, simply because they cannot be made.


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Haha. Your words suggest strongly I should know my type for sure? I am not part of that low IQ forum.
I did not mean it in that way. It is just when it started lots of usual members had remarkably identified their types more or less correctly, with very little knowledge of socionics. Now they are all "experts" in quantum socionics, that get special kicks from public doubting of own or someone else's type.
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  #38  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:01 PM
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Sorry for my delay in replying. What you say, this is true.

However, socionics is basically a study of 'regular joes' (as the expression is) .. ie people like you and me and other posters, asthe study of ordinary people and also crucially how these said people interact with each other.

What I have found for myself, on the analysis of several things. I have looked at the relations I have with my *close* friends .. and I notice a pattern. My closest friend I type as INFj - which is my activator. I would say that my relation with him is best described by the relation of activation. My other friends, on typing tend to fit into, also, Mirror. I am friends with another who has also developed an interest in socionics, and has typed themselves as SLI. This is also interesting as I would say that we think very much alike - and at times it is useful for bouncing my ideas and interactions with ... it is, on looking at the history of our friendship, akin to the closest I can get to observing myself, in that elusive 'third person' !

What I also do think, is that the ordinary person should be able to study socionics, their type and others, with reasonable accuracy. After all, if Augusta (I'll take the Westernised shortened name thank you !) Started out as an economist, with an interest in relationships, was able to, by her own perceptions, able to view certain psychological types, and how they correspond to close psychological relationships, (ie marriage) why cant the rest of do the same thing, at least to some extent ?

So yes, looking at my relations with friends, and the relations I've had with previous partners once the initial sexual 'buzz' has dissapated, my type relations would seem pretty accurate and come to the fore (the last one was ENTj)

So I would therefore say to establish your type, observe others relationships, your own and previous relationships (to some extent this is how socionics developed ?) To establish at least what is conducive and what isn;t conducive...ie you will at least be able to sharpen your dominant function to produce a clearer type. (I could be wrong but I somehow think you said at a previous time that you do not have too many actual physical interactions with people - I would say we need these to sharpen our dominant function - especially with those within our quadra)

Of course, this could all be wrong, but its just my theory/thinking on it at the mo

Thoughts ?

Explain to me how does making a relationship with others sharpen your dominant function? I think it depends.

If the person for instance the person you are having a friendly relationship with strongly represses your dominant function and you strongly repress his dominant one then the dominants will feel threatened. Why? well simply because the strength of a function of a group equals the sum of the strengths of the functions of the individuals. (why? this is also something that has to be reflected). For instance suppose that the strength of your Se is 80% and the strength of the Se of your friend is 30% than the strength of the Se of the group will be 55%. If you prefer Se then you are going to view the lack of Se in the group as threatening, so you are going to double your efforts in order to compensate the lack of Se in the group.

But suppose for instance that I am having a friendship with an ESFp, then Se is strong enough in the group. I will therefore do some effort to compensate for the lack of Ti. If the relationship lasts for a longtime I am going to end up thinking I am an ISTj.

What do you think?
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  #39  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:16 PM
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I think he might be an INTp more than ENTj.
I think Ed Norton resembles the poker player Daniel Negreanu on V.I. to such an extent that it is reasonable to at least contemplate the possibility that they might be the same type. And Negreanu is clearly not an INTp, and he is clearly not an ENTj. I suggest that ENTp is more likely than INTp for both of them. What are you counter arguments to that hypothesis?

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Ok, descriptions. Well, this is easy. If it would be possible to describe the obvious difference between E and I and j and p then I think it would also be possible to do the same for the combinations. However I don't think it is possible to describe them in terms of obvious behaviour.

I don't think I can do that, because what you require is universally applicable descriptions. I can't even say, well... mostly... or well... usually... No, this would be a lie, because we do not know, for example, how many introverted extroverts are out there, I mean E behaving like I or even p behaving like j. This is one of the instances where I will have to agree with WMWK, that the universal laws cannot be used, simply because they cannot be made.
Maybe the descriptions of the four temperaments are not good enough to enable people to see the differences clearly. But I can usually see the temperamental differences between real life ENTjs and INTps very clearly. One of the most visable differences is that ENTjs tend to be workaholics, whereas INTps tend to more of lazybones.
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  #40  
Old 13/12/2007, 01:20 PM
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I think Ed Norton resembles the poker player Daniel Negreanu on V.I. to such an extent that it is reasonable to at least contemplate the possibility that they might be the same type. And Negreanu is clearly not an INTp, and he is clearly not an ENTj. I suggest that ENTp is more likely than INTp for both of them. What are you counter arguments to that hypothesis?
Your argument is very shitty. If one looks like another, it is because they have some common physical traits. But how do you know what are the traits that determine the type of someone?
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