Go Back   Socionics Forums > Ramble Mumble

Ramble Mumble Anything goes, but please make an effort to stay positive and keep it socionics related.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 15/01/2008, 11:36 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Did someone just call me too? Or was that only a coyote from a far desert?
Imprint me with your Donald Duck logic! Imprint me. Imprint me! Imprint me. Imprint me! Animate your TRUTH to me. I love you!

I am a duck. And when I open my eyes.... the first thing I see is my mummy. My little mummy! Muuuuuuummmmmmyyyyyyyyyyy! Be it the real duck mummy I love to love or be it an elephant or be it............. the BIBLE. Yuuuaaack! I feel sick.

Whats the story? I need the Te-bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
Did someone just call me?
Of course!

So whats the story on the information metabolism in the given example?

INTjs feel basically the same everytime they hear the same piece of music!

Last edited by Vibration; 15/01/2008 at 11:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 16/01/2008, 07:30 AM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default

Hmmm, I really don't know how or what INTjs feel. Me personally? I like when the music resonate with my inner state, then it is truly a remarkable experience. I caught myself few times thinking, why I remember this piece of music was excellent but it doesn't sound like that for me anymore? Been caught in a moment I reckon.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 16/01/2008, 09:32 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
Hmmm, I really don't know how or what INTjs feel. Me personally? I like when the music resonate with my inner state, then it is truly a remarkable experience. I caught myself few times thinking, why I remember this piece of music was excellent but it doesn't sound like that for me anymore? Been caught in a moment I reckon.
I have analysed pieces of music that I have liked for years with those I wrote myself. When I compared those music pieces with music theory I found that most things I knew was already there in the books. It did not really add anything to read those books, well some terminology some tricks and the awareness of things that I should not do (playing the base note in the third and while playing the chord with same notes blablabla) -its just an example. Anyway, I found that the music I truly love is fractal music -music containing a small molecular element that systematically repeats itself and mutates randomly in an interesting and unpredictable way over time. That is absolute beauty to me. I can not think of a better composer than Mozart in this respect. The whole music piece consists basically of the same idea. That Chopin piece was great but there was no POWER melody in it. Melody defines that molecular element that makes for beauty -the beauty that all other elements have to follow. Do you agree?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 16/01/2008, 10:00 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default

I do!...where was I?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 16/01/2008, 10:10 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
I do!...where was I?
Aha, resonate(fundamental frequency in you)=fractality(common denominator in the musical structure?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 16/01/2008, 11:42 PM
Vibration Vibration is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
I do!...where was I?
Do you mean it? ...... Meusic?....... Is that Si working? ...... Like telepathy?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 17/01/2008, 05:21 AM
chopin's Avatar
chopin chopin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibration View Post
Anyway, I found that the music I truly love is fractal music -music containing a small molecular element that systematically repeats itself and mutates randomly in an interesting and unpredictable way over time. That is absolute beauty to me. I can not think of a better composer than Mozart in this respect. The whole music piece consists basically of the same idea. That Chopin piece was great but there was no POWER melody in it. Melody defines that molecular element that makes for beauty -the beauty that all other elements have to follow. Do you agree?
When you say 'absolute beauty', are you referring to the original melody or the actual process of creating variations on the melody? That probably sounds confusing ... what I'm trying to say is if you simply heard the one original motif of the piece and didn't hear the subsequent variations, would you think it on its own an example of absolute beauty or would you have to hear the variations before pronouncing it beautiful? Yeah ... I think I should get back to work ... I don't even understand what I just wrote.

Just in case you're a mindreader or something, I'll finish my thought. I think that composing variations on a theme is simply creativity, not beauty. I mean I don't think that you can start with this nondescript little motif and transform it into something lovely. You could do the best with what you've got ... but how can you make beauty out of nothing? And if you start with something beautiful, why bother changing it? (Hey - I'm starting to make sense now. ) But anyway, that's why I love Chopin's music - because it so obviously just came from within him - these stunning melodies - and you don't want to hear them over and over or twisted and played around with ... because they're just perfect as they are.
__________________
If so many men, so many minds, certainly so many hearts, so many kinds of love. - Tolstoy
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 17/01/2008, 05:42 PM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
House Robot
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,040
Default

Beauty is harmonious order -- complete proportional unity. And it is not subjective.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 17/01/2008, 05:48 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Beauty is harmonious order -- complete proportional unity. And it is not subjective.
A brick is beautiful!



Look at it, harmonious order and complete proportional unity!
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 17/01/2008, 05:57 PM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
House Robot
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
A brick is beautiful!



Look at it, harmonious order and complete proportional unity!
Oh, my gosh!!! You are right ...
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 17/01/2008, 07:22 PM
hkkmr's Avatar
hkkmr hkkmr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 95
Default

We should discuss Wittgenstein... he talks about bricks and slabs a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 17/01/2008, 07:58 PM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
House Robot
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
We should discuss Wittgenstein... he talks about bricks and slabs a bit.
What about him do you want to discuss?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 17/01/2008, 08:11 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
Gone on holiday...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
We should discuss Wittgenstein... he talks about bricks and slabs a bit.
I don't know who Wittgenstein is ..did he presen a TV show ?

My friend is a bricklayer. He feels he's creative. I guess he is because he does create things. Houses and the like.

Bricks can be a metaphor for so many of our creations both in the physical and non-physical world. They can even metaphorically create stepping stones to the understanding of..of whatever you want to know or do.

I even use them to create a wall around me sometimes.

Did we ever realise bricks were cool ?

.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 18/01/2008, 05:12 AM
chopin's Avatar
chopin chopin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Beauty is harmonious order -- complete proportional unity. And it is not subjective.
Are you serious? "Harmonious order" and "complete proportional unity" may do it for you, but it doesn't turn me on. And how can you say that beauty is not subjective? Do you think only a select elite get to understand and appreciate beauty? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
__________________
If so many men, so many minds, certainly so many hearts, so many kinds of love. - Tolstoy
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 18/01/2008, 07:08 AM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default

I bet he wishes he never posted that nonsense
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 18/01/2008, 09:14 AM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
House Robot
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopin View Post
Are you serious? "Harmonious order" and "complete proportional unity" may do it for you, but it doesn't turn me on. And how can you say that beauty is not subjective? Do you think only a select elite get to understand and appreciate beauty? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Maybe I should have checked my references before posting, because what I said is actually based on Francis J. Kovach, who in his book Philosophy of Beauty (from 1974) discusses the various views on beauty that have been presented by various thinkers through history. After having scrutinized some hundred years of arguments, Kovach reaches this conclusion: "Beauty in general is integral unity with or without proportions of parts." (p. 185). In other words, beauty is the same as order. And, seriously, I don't think that it is nonsense. Seriously, I think that Kovach is basically right. The ultimate essence of beauty, or quality, is something very similar to what Kovach says that it is.

And it is not only an elite that understands and appreciates beauty. All of us are doing it all the time, but of course some of us are better at it than others. It is, for example, obviously the case that some of us are objectively more beautiful than others. And a part of the explanation for that phenomenon is that some of us are more ordered than others ... I am of course not talking about J types here, I am talking about the fact that some people's faces and bodies are better proportioned than the average person's. How beautiful a person is can, at least to a significant extent, be measured. It can be expressed as a mathematical relation.

Also in art, literature, and music there are artefacts that are objectively more beautiful than others -- and almost everyone who has taken this seriously agrees with that statement. It is not something subjective that Shakespeare is considered to be the best writer of all times, or that Mozart's music is among the best that has ever been created. They are objectively good, and anyone who disagrees with that is objectively wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 18/01/2008, 01:04 PM
SG's Avatar
SG SG is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,521
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
After having scrutinized some hundred years of arguments, Kovach reaches this conclusion: "Beauty in general is integral unity with or without proportions of parts." (p. 185). In other words, beauty is the same as order.

How on Earth " integral unity with or without proportions of parts" = order?

Integral unity just means it is a whole, something that is complete, and mind you, he said in general, there could also be beauty in incompletion. I wonder what it is like to be you, Prom, I mean I wonder if you realise you often misunderstand and misinterpret things left right and centre?
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 18/01/2008, 02:00 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default

So I want to come back to answer Sergei on something he said before.

If one cannot use a function without using it with another function then this function is not well-differentiated, it didn't become an independant entity. It is still primitive and archaic. If you usually can't listen to a music without using either thinking or intuition with it then your sensation function is still at the dog level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
How on Earth " integral unity with or without proportions of parts" = order?

Integral unity just means it is a whole, something that is complete, and mind you, he said in general, there could also be beauty in incompletion. I wonder what it is like to be you, Prom, I mean I wonder if you realise you often misunderstand and misinterpret things left right and centre?
Prometheus this is a sign, try to imagine what is he trying to make you understand.
__________________
"To live happy, live hidden."
β ST, E6 autopreservation.

Last edited by complicater-complexer; 18/01/2008 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 18/01/2008, 04:19 PM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
House Robot
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
How on Earth " integral unity with or without proportions of parts" = order?

Integral unity just means it is a whole, something that is complete, and mind you, he said in general, there could also be beauty in incompletion.
If I had the book here with me I could check his exact reasoning where he explains how they hang together. Unfortunately, I have only access to my notes from some years ago, including my own conclusions from his arguments. But it is still very clear that he is talking about order, and also that the best pieces of artwork are "better ordered" than the average or bad artwork.

It has also to do with complexity. Your nice little coloured bricks there may form a complete, and ordered proportional unity, but the artwork lack in complexity. Even though it may be almost perfect in its "genre", some genres and some artworks are too simple to be serious candidates for the gold medal in the beauty contest. Shakespeare's works of art are probably, at least some of them, not completely proportional, but they compensate for that by being multi-faceted. It is more difficult to succeed in creating an integral unity out of a very complex material, but if you do your work of art is probably better than an equally integral unity of some less complex material. I heard in some documentary recently that the taste of chocolate cannot yet be copied in the lab like they can with orange, strawberry, etc., simply because the taste (or should I use another word here, I'm not sure of my English) of chocolate is so complex due to the complex chemical structure of chocolate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG View Post
I wonder what it is like to be you, Prom, I mean I wonder if you realise you often misunderstand and misinterpret things left right and centre?
I don't think I misunderstand what I read very often, but perhaps sometimes when people speak. And it is also not that easy for me to explain these and similar things to other people, but that is a natural phenomenon that has very much to do with the differing bases of knowledge from which we try to understand each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by complicater-complexer View Post
Prometheus this is a sign, try to imagine what is he trying to make you understand.

Last edited by Prometheus; 18/01/2008 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 18/01/2008, 09:46 PM
complicater-complexer's Avatar
complicater-complexer complicater-complexer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,374
Default

He is telling you that you have problems with understanding, but since he already said that you are likely to be not N then you know which type to chose.
__________________
"To live happy, live hidden."
β ST, E6 autopreservation.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 SOCIONICS.COM