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  #21  
Old 03/09/2009, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
No. You are wrong.
You're statement is completely unjustified and unwelcome. It is also wrong.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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  #22  
Old 03/09/2009, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
You're statement is completely unjustified and unwelcome. It is also wrong.
I don't care if my statement is unwelcome. It is necessary to point out that there is no there. So your statement was false.
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  #23  
Old 03/09/2009, 11:18 PM
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The more information I take on, the more I am able to reject that which does not fit in, and the more able I am to use this information to formulate my own opinions, and indeed, to come up with new ideas and advances in the information I have taken on.
Seems an awful lot like:
Quote:
as an ignoring (7th) function (LII and LSI)

The individual is adept at finding external sources of factual information and confident in his ability to evaluate their value, but regards collecting data as secondary to making them fit into a consistent logical system...

as a demonstrative (8th) function (ILE and SLE)

The individual is adept at recognizing which aspects of an information, statement, or action are factually accurate in the sense of checking them against available external sources of information, but he tends to see this as lesser importance in comparison to their internal logical consistency when pursuing a concept fed by his leading function.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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  #24  
Old 04/09/2009, 12:13 AM
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Seems an awful lot like:
Definitely not. You are wrong again.
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  #25  
Old 04/09/2009, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Definitely not. You are wrong again.
Do you honestly think anyone takes you seriously if you don't offer any sort of basis for your conclusions? If you're going to flaunt your opinion around in people's faces, at least learn to support your theses. Haven't you ever taken a persuasive writing class?
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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  #26  
Old 04/09/2009, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
Do you honestly think anyone takes you seriously if you don't offer any sort of basis for your conclusions?
No. But you don't take me seriously even if I offer strong arguments for my conclusions, which I have done many, many times. My conclusions are inevitable for everyone who understands this correctly, for anyone who have done the necessary study of Socionics. But since you and others refuse to do your part of the job, you continue stick on to your incorrect assumption, and you stick on to your incorrect beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
If you're going to flaunt your opinion around in people's faces, at least learn to support your theses.
Learn the basics of Socionics. Learn the functions correctly. Learn the types correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
Haven't you ever taken a persuasive writing class?
Have you ever read the socionic material provided by SG on this very site? If so, why haven't you understood it?
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  #27  
Old 04/09/2009, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
No. But you don't take me seriously even if I offer strong arguments for my conclusions, which I have done many, many times.
You have never done so, at least not since I've been here.

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
My conclusions are inevitable for everyone who understands this correctly, for anyone who have done the necessary study of Socionics.
No, they aren't. You made them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Learn the basics of Socionics. Learn the functions correctly. Learn the types correctly.
Done.


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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Have you ever read the socionic material provided by SG on this very site? If so, why haven't you understood it?
Not only did you completely avoid the question, you changed the subject. And as a matter of fact, I have read the material on this site. Much of it is simplified for the casual reader, most doesn't point anywhere near your conclusions, and some of the material even contradicts you.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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  #28  
Old 04/09/2009, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
You have never done so, at least not since I've been here.
I will not endlessly repeat my arguments. There is a search function if you are interested in what I have written in the past, both on this forum and on the16types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
No, they aren't. You made them up.
Almost everything I say regarding the types is in perfect agreement with classical Socionics. It's just that you don't see it because you haven't studied Socionics yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
Done.
So now you agree with me, that's good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
Not only did you completely avoid the question, you changed the subject. And as a matter of fact, I have read the material on this site. Much of it is simplified for the casual reader, most doesn't point anywhere near your conclusions, and some of the material even contradicts you.
Which material contradicts me?
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  #29  
Old 04/09/2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
Seems like and to me. Alpha NT.
Interesting, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandals View Post
Sounds reasonable.
I can't speak for everyone but I know nothing about MBTI functions. MBTI isn't really that well known outide America, at least in UK it is probably as well known as socionics (ie not very).
Quote:
Originally Posted by king View Post
My understanding of Ti/Te is certainly not the most advanced.
However the empahasis in the originally quoted statement seems to be on the synthesis of facts over the system the author is creating.

I do know an ILI who thinks in almost exactly this way. very methodical, taking on board info, discarding info which is irrelevent.
However I feel that both Ti and Te are being expressed, I do not have enough information (insight, experience etc.) to say for certain the emphasis either way.
I will say Te > Ti as a gut reaction. actually I'm really not sure. so I will shut up.
Interesting thanks. It seems you see strong T in both functions, with some N being expressed.


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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
You don't need to shut up, everyone's input is appreciated. I see it strong Te as well, but Te is unvalued and parts are discarded in favor of Ti.
I agree with both parts.

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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
Seems an awful lot like:
Interesting.

-------------------

OK, I made this post a long time ago, just about the time that i'd heard about Model A. It was part of a discussion and I (or people) were asked to describe Te

http://www.socionics.com/forums/show...&postcount=180

(I edited out the part in my quote which says i'm trying to describe my etc for I think obvious reasons of impartiality). At that time I thought I was ISTp, and had ego .

What is interesting I think is that, even although I was attempting to describe Te, it is rather clear to me that Ti is still the dominant function i'm expressing here, given that (among other things):

is external statics of fields.

And as Ashura wrote:

Quote:
Such an individual perceives information from without as a sense of objects' proper or improper correlation/proportion, a sense of balance or imbalance between them, or an awareness or unawareness of the advantages of one object over another.
etc..

I thought that it would be interesting to use this initial quote of this thread for reasons such as: my knowledge of socionics was less at that point (so less tainted to therefore describe something to make it "fit"), and even although I was attempting to describe Te, it's clear to me on reading back on it that the influence is on as valued, and I think some :Ne: thrown in.

The quotes that you posted about as an 8th function I feel do make sense to me, and you've captured the essense of what I was expressing, and how it plays out within me (@ stanprollyright). Thank you for taking the time to post in this thread.

I though i'd post some other peoples analysis of the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
Si + Ti: I pull together all the available facts, and use all the facts I have gathered, 'swirl' them around, and I feel that with what I have gathered I then present to the world, my thoughts. When I gather this information, there is of course, some blanks (after all..to take on board EVERYTHING could suggest I don't actually have a mind of my own) so what happens is I take on as many facts as I can, the more facts I take on, the more able I am to reject that which does not fit in with the most of the assimilated information.

(Basically taking external data and perceiving it as a subjective envelopment (the facts swirl around me). The facts are no longer "objective" i.e. separate from the observer, but are now a subjective and relative experience.)

Ti: The more information I take on, the more I am able to reject that which does not fit in, and the more able I am to use this information to forumulate my own opinions, and indeed, to come up with new ideas and advances in the information I have taken on.

Ti + Ne: It is sort of like a logical information external gatherer, and then connecting that info to be feel knowledgable, to absorb, then produce internally and externally, new insights based on this data gathering and sorting system.

I could easily have said this.

Alpha NT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
Sounds mostly like Ti to me, some Ne.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuturtutu
Asker aka Taciturn.
It seems most people see it as Ti, and as an Alpha NT.

tuturtutu sees it as an asking type - which corresponds to LII, but not to ILI.

It's just another interesting piece in the puzzle - or whatever that word is/should be.

Last edited by Cyclops; 04/09/2009 at 09:34 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04/09/2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
I can't speak for everyone but I know nothing about MBTI functions. MBTI isn't really that well known outide America, at least in UK it is probably as well known as socionics (ie not very).
Totally false. MBTI is pretty well-known in most Western countries, and used by organizations and companies to test personnel. Socionics is pretty much never heard of in the West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
OK, I made this post a long time ago, just about the time that i'd heard about Model A. It was part of a discussion and I (or people) were asked to describe Te

http://www.socionics.com/forums/show...&postcount=180

(I edited out the part in my quote which says i'm trying to describe my etc for I think obvious reasons of impartiality). At that time I thought I was ISTp, and had ego .
So first you got it right, and now you have brainwashed yourself and got it wrong. The usual pattern emerges; people come here or to the 16types, and they have often got a roughly correct view on what type they are. And then the madness begins. People's brains start spinning. They spin around and around, faster and faster, until everything is a mess in their heads and they have lost all contact with reality and the basic facts they started with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
What is interesting I think is that, even although I was attempting to describe Te, it is rather clear to me that Ti is still the dominant function i'm expressing here, given that (among other things):
It's not . It is definitely not . It is disgusting to have to listen to charlatans who don't have a clue what they are doing in Socionics. You spreading bullshit. That should come to an end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aushra
Such an individual perceives information from without as a sense of objects' proper or improper correlation/proportion, a sense of balance or imbalance between them, or an awareness or unawareness of the advantages of one object over another.
That's a different thing entirely from what you describe in the quote that started this thread. What Aushra describes has nothing to do with information gathering and pulling together all relevant facts. People simply must see that they are two different things, otherwise you are just blind or don't understand what you are reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
It seems most people see it as Ti, and as an Alpha NT.
Yes, that has always been the sad truth on these forums. Most forum members just don't get it. They never learn the functions correctly, and they continue to mistype -- over and over again. It's disgusting.
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  #31  
Old 04/09/2009, 03:13 PM
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General note: it seems INTj is likely, but if some, such as King may think INTp, I should look at that also. I've got an idea for that, which i'll try to get round to.

Other general note: It seems I have had some good news today in the real world. Life can be good sometimes.

Last edited by Cyclops; 04/09/2009 at 03:20 PM.
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  #32  
Old 04/09/2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
The quotes that you posted about as an 8th function I feel do make sense to me, and you've captured the essense of what I was expressing, and how it plays out within me (@ stanprollyright). Thank you for taking the time to post in this thread.
I would just like to point out: is an LII's 7th function, not 8th.
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So this one time me an' my bes' frien' Stan, we went to a church service. That preacher was talkin' 'bout hell. So Stan leans over to me an' he says, "I bet hell is like a PoLR hit every day."

An' I says, "Stan, you prolly right."
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  #33  
Old 04/09/2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
I would just like to point out: is an LII's 7th function, not 8th.
Apologies, mistype (on the number I wrote to) on my part.
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  #34  
Old 05/09/2009, 12:22 PM
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Actually..hmm... note to self: perhaps remember to examine ENTp also.
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  #35  
Old 05/09/2009, 01:59 PM
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It's +


as a base function in LSI and LII

"The individual views reality through the lens of logic, immediately recognizing the correctness and appropriateness of things and their proper place in reality and in his system of views and behavior.

He freely makes logical assertions (often exaggerated) about new information and experience. He holds highest those rules to which exceptions do not exist, and is a habitual critic of people or things that don't follow a set of rules, whether they are those accepted by the community, or his own, or even the other person's.

Although he is able to adopt others' rules, his own are always the last word, and these are subject to continual refinement.
Often seen as "demanding", due to high standards"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
It's clearly not , and it's important that people understand why. Like all rational functions rejects information early in the information gathering process. does not take on as many facts as it can, and does not "pull together all the available facts, and use all the facts" it has gathered. It requires an irrational type to think and behave like that.

The focus on facts and external information comes from . The desire to put it all together into a coherent whole, a coherent and correct world view, comes from . The attitude that is expressed in the quote is clearly not EJ temperament, because it doesn't have the necessary focus on effectiveness, practical results, what the information can be used for, etc. It strongly suggest IP temperament.
is about systematized logic, what is "correct" what is "false", what "fits" what doesn't. Ti is analytical and structured.

is about practical/efficient logic, the "best" way to do this, what will "work" and what won't. Te is productive and direct.
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Last edited by Marie84; 05/09/2009 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #36  
Old 05/09/2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
It's +


as a base function in LSI and LII
Wrong. Why do you refuse to learn the funcitons correctly? It is not .

Quote:
"The individual views reality through the lens of logic, immediately recognizing the correctness and appropriateness of things and their proper place in reality and in his system of views and behavior.

He freely makes logical assertions (often exaggerated) about new information and experience. He holds highest those rules to which exceptions do not exist, and is a habitual critic of people or things that don't follow a set of rules, whether they are those accepted by the community, or his own, or even the other person's.

Although he is able to adopt others' rules, his own are always the last word, and these are subject to continual refinement.
Often seen as "demanding", due to high standards"
This text is apparently very difficult for people here to understand correctly. You seem to think that what is described here has something to do with what is described by Cyclops. What is it in this that you have such a hard time understanding? Why do you misinterpret what is said there?

is hostile towards empirical information. does not take in external information, especially not lots of it. does not try to put together all the pieces of information in some sort of big puzzle in an attempt to make sense of it (that's what + does). is entirely subjective in nature, trying to "enforce" its rules and principles onto reality, in a way constructing reality in the process. This is what Aushra is talking about but you don't understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie84
is about systematized logic, what is "correct" what is "false", what "fits" what doesn't. Ti is analytical and structured.
Yes, and that refers to the anti-empirical aspects of . works like a filter that excludes information that is interpreted as not fitting the model, the system that is 's starting point. Everything -- reality itself -- is seen through the theoretical glasses that are built into the theoretical model/system that the leading type has chosen. is always biased and prejudiced; it does not take see reality for what it really, it is not objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie84
is about practical/efficient logic, the "best" way to do this, what will "work" and what won't. Te is productive and direct.
It is obvious here that you are only repeating what is common knowledge in Socionics without understanding what it refers to in the real types. You have not understood what this really means.
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  #37  
Old 05/09/2009, 04:40 PM
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@prom

Hope you don't mind, I have a couple of questions.

How does someone with a Ti (in particular NT) ego develop a theory?

What information is used as the starting point of that theory?

Wouldn't a well balanced individual still have some value for both Ti and Te, whilst maintaing a preference and focus on one?

Last edited by king; 05/09/2009 at 04:48 PM.
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  #38  
Old 05/09/2009, 04:46 PM
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[Post removed]

Last edited by Zeus; 06/09/2009 at 01:20 AM. Reason: You should PM the mod or admin
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  #39  
Old 05/09/2009, 04:51 PM
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[Post removed]

Last edited by Zeus; 06/09/2009 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Quote of the previous post
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  #40  
Old 05/09/2009, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
How does someone with a Ti (in particular NT) ego develop a theory?
First you have to understand how a leading type (in particular the LII) doesn't do it. They don't start with observations of the external world. They don't start with empirical facts that they try to put together and make sense of. They don't build a puzzle out of a huge number of seemingly unrelated empirical facts. Basically, you can say (as Jung did) that they develop a theory out of their own minds, with our without axioms that comes from someone else's construct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king
What information is used as the starting point of that theory?
Their own subjective inventions. No empirical observations. First comes the theoretical construct. Later (if ever) they might try to make the external data (their own or other people's observations) fit into their own model, but they have a strong tendency to overlook or ignore or explain away empirical data that don't fit their preferred system. Their stance is anti-empiricist and anti-fact oriented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king
Wouldn't a well balanced individual still have some value for both Ti and Te, whilst maintaing a preference and focus on one?
Yes, but the focus in Cyclop's quote is on , not .
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