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  #21  
Old 03/02/2006, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: What is Time?

It makes it highly subjective since memories are not only subjective but the ability to memorise things varies from person to person.
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  #22  
Old 03/02/2006, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Agreed. Reality will always be subjective to us.
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  #23  
Old 03/02/2006, 06:44 PM
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forgive me if i dont address every conception presented by previous posters for this thread is concerned with time. SG was on the right track when he uses "intuition of time", as no other understanding of time is possible. to try and understand time through discursive thuoght will forever lead one chasing his or her own tail, never coming any closer to an answer. it is important to realize the subtlety i am trying to point out between intuition(a.k.a. understanding) and a discursive/re-presentational mindset. one will never come to an understanding by re-presenting; only by direct looking. indeed, the intuitional understanding is a more lucid, more profound and direct understanding than the supposed "observations" made by the senses. a true understanding of mathematics comes from the intuition. a trained monkey can do calculus, only a human with a developed intuition can discover calculus. the only way to understand somthing such as calculus is to discover it for yourself. i dont know how to address this issue of reducing intuition to visions and omens, every person has some degree of intuitional development, not everyone has a developed intuition to allow higher order apprehensions such as knowing what time is, or seeing how space and time are a continuum, for instance. perhaps discovering calculus in the first place could be considered a "vision", or "omen".

(sorry, i wont elaborate on how self and other are the same. it was the next step in the line of thought from that post. i will say that NYX, you are correct: anything we construct is fallible. therefore, do not construct anything. i then pose the question for you: does mathematics exist independantly of the mind, or is it a construction of the mind?)

i suppose a person could be given the direct answer to a question, such as "what is time", and not understand it if it was not approached with the intuitional faculties. the same is true with not understanding "what is energy?", "energy is mass".
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  #24  
Old 03/02/2006, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Just because something is fallible doesn't mean we should not construct it. (Otherwise why have computers?)
Meanwhile, what exists outside our perception will not be fully percieved and hence understood until it somehow manifests itself in a way we are able to detect. Otherwise it's purely hypothetical and beyond proof. (Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't really solve anything)The way we see it will always exist in the mind. Therefore the way the entity is manifested and how we see it will be subjective.
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  #25  
Old 03/02/2006, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Well what is intuition? The best explanation that I have ever been given is that it is a predominantly unconscious process which sifts through large quantities of information and comes up with a sort of "estimation" You give a person a question and they come up with an answer that seems to fit best.

If a person is placed in a new and uncertain context their intuition will enable them to solve problems by turning the world into a working metaphor. Like being stranded in a forest: "there are trees, they are made of wood- houses are made of wood. The vines sort of look like rope, i can use them to tie the wood together. Logs are sort of like lincoln logs, i can pile them in that way and make a cabin." The intuition is just projecting itself onto the context.

So I don't see why intuition wouldnt necessarily use logic in some way. Would it be unreasonable to say that intuition uses logic for processing? I have seen no evidence to suggest that intuition is completely separate from logic. Just because socionics represents intuition as a triangle and logic as a square doesn't convince me that they aren't interrelated processes. There is no "intuition box" in the brain. Since it it predominantly unconscious who is to say what is going on behind the curtain?
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  #26  
Old 04/02/2006, 02:51 AM
alphaquerist alphaquerist is offline
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Default Re: What is Time?

Hello All
I know a lot has been discussed in this thread about being seen as a measure of being able to make sense of time in the external world. As an INTp what I have experienced is what Henri Bergson calls "duree" or internal time. web page
SG's assumption that ppl are not always good at keeping time in the external world is quite true.
Internal time allows me to know when things are going to happen and this is a process which I am not able to document. It happens in a flash of a second. Therefore, I attribute it to my Intuition.
This my understanding of Ni. Hope I have not confused things more!
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  #27  
Old 04/02/2006, 04:34 AM
Transigent Transigent is offline
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Default Re: What is Time?

Short Version:

Time is change.

Ne is an active changing of the environment.
Ni is a passive consideration of the changing of the environment.

S -> consideration of what actually is
beliefs: it is good enough, experience it

N-> consideration of what is not
beliefs: it is not good enough, change it

N can be viewed as a lack of personal force, S can be viewed as a lack of alternative views

-----------------------
Lots of unneeded metaphysical digressions in this thread. (Not that it is really a bad thing, but just pointing out that it is off-topic. Which I usually don't care, but this is a VERY good topic, and I don't think it should be left to die.)

There are actually two important questions raised in this topic:

What is time, as viewed by socionics?

That is, how can our general definition of time be fitted into the basic framework of socionics, and vice versa?

What is the relation of time to Ni?

How does the nature of Intuition introverted give rise to the socionic sense of time? How do certain types "become" the function Ni?

Much potential for interesting discussion! Since Ni seems to be a strange function.

I. What is time, in a socionics context?

Unless you want to begin talking about clocks, quantification, and the special theory of relativity, time has to be looked at strictly in a socionics sense.

If there was no such thing as a clock, or relativity, the fact is that Ni would still exist as a completely seperate function in socionics theory. Taking a view that is too literal, will obscure the entire point of this facinating field of psychology. We don't consider that Ti types have actual logical circuits residing in thier heads, or that Te types have photographic memories. The truth is that all functions are inexact and "organic" processes that interpret and analyze the environment.

With that being said, it is clear that the actual "efficiency" of a function has no bearing on the definition of the function itself. Since all functions are inexact and organic, each person has varying levels of "correctness" that has nothing to do with the actual function itself. (Just because your "car" does not work, does not mean that it ceases to be a "car". It still was meant to get you from place to place.)

So, what happens when you take the general concept of "time" and strip ALL of the accuracy away from it? Simplistically, you will get only before/after, but the general idea of this boils down to one major thing:

CHANGE

Time (when applied to inexact biological systems) is really just the consideration of change. An awareness that things are able to change properties. To dig a little deeper, it helps to look into WHY time is related to Ni, or even N in general.

II. What is the relation of time to Ni?

Intuition is said to be intertwined with "potential". There are actual reasons for this (and even why N and S are complete opposites) but that is really another discussion. I see the extroverted functions as "active" in a sense, and the introverted functions as "passive" in a sense. The sense that, when you "use" an extroverted function, you desire to interact with the outside world; and when you use an introverted function, you desire to interact with the inner world.

In a nutshell, Ne is the active search and initiation of "change", where Ni is the contemplation and interpretation of "change". Outer world vs. inner world. Every definition of Ne and Ni can be derived as a consequence of this.

Of course, this ties in nicely with duality also.

If you think about just what an INxp does most of the time, you start to draw a blank. At least an ISxp is concerned with the sensation of thier bodies (which is identifible enough), but it begins to grate on you...are INxp's brains just a big empty hole?

In a sense, YES! What is a common desription of a "natural" state of an INxp? Meditative. What happens when you meditate? You clear your mind.

Of course, nature follows the laws of physics. For every action, there is a reaction. Everything has an opposite. In the case of an introverted perciever, you can either consider what IS......or what is NOT. I believe that Ni can be very much like Ne in many ways, but most of the "crazy" ideas of Ni will not be acted on.

Yes, I have been rambling, so I will just do the INTj thing and state things:

INxp's let reality "wash" over them. They are not concerned with what is, they are only concerned with what is not. They don't mind force specifically because it is simply another part of present reality that they aren't concerned about. Tomorrow, things will be different. Everything has it's place in the flow of things.
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  #28  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

this is going to be an enigmatic post but i will say this: only through intuition can we come to an "objective" understaning. classifying everything into a mental construct such as subjective/objective does not help. again: is mathematics a construction of the mind, or does it exist in reality? perhaps the writings of a great thinker can help us in understanding this subjective/objective mentality. einstein often wrote of "humbly understanding the lofty structure of all that there is". if he is not a liar, then we can suppose that it is possible to transcend ordinary levels of understanding.
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  #29  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Well, I suppose you can measure/calculate a distance or you can look at it and estimate it without measuring, which would be a guess. Same could be done with time. You can measure/calculate or guess. If you guess it then you would likely to use intuition to do so and it will not be just but also . And as time could also be measured/calculated, making it exclusive property of a single is a bit short-sighted IMO.
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  #30  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

The American continent existed long before it was "discovered" by European explorers. Obviously something can exist outside of contemporary science, reasoning, and knowledge. My knowledge of mathemetical theory is insufficient to answer your question, so I will not attempt to do so. But I will say this: going beyond the logical bounds of reason to understand something would probably end up confusing us rather than enlightening us.
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  #31  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:
I have seen no evidence to suggest that intuition is completely separate from logic. Just because socionics represents intuition as a triangle and logic as a square doesn't convince me that they aren't interrelated processes. There is no "intuition box" in the brain. Since it it predominantly unconscious who is to say what is going on behind the curtain?
Intuition is really a bit of everything.
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  #32  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
Originally posted by Epic:
Well what is intuition? The best explanation that I have ever been given is that it is a predominantly unconscious process which sifts through large quantities of information and comes up with a sort of "estimation" You give a person a question and they come up with an answer that seems to fit best.

If a person is placed in a new and uncertain context their intuition will enable them to solve problems by turning the world into a working metaphor. Like being stranded in a forest: "there are trees, they are made of wood- houses are made of wood. The vines sort of look like rope, i can use them to tie the wood together. Logs are sort of like lincoln logs, i can pile them in that way and make a cabin." The intuition is just projecting itself onto the context.

So I don't see why intuition wouldnt necessarily use logic in some way. Would it be unreasonable to say that intuition uses logic for processing? I have seen no evidence to suggest that intuition is completely separate from logic. Just because socionics represents intuition as a triangle and logic as a square doesn't convince me that they aren't interrelated processes. There is no "intuition box" in the brain. Since it it predominantly unconscious who is to say what is going on behind the curtain?
intuition is a subtle mental process that one can become more cognizant of. it involves a certain passive rigour. it is no estimation, it is a knowing of what is. it is not a metaphor. thinking is not seperate, but thinking loudly makes it hard to hear the intuition. by using the "logical" "discursive" faculties, it is easy to lose oneself in re-presentation. and i think no one should be allowed to use the term unconscious, or subconscious without "knowing" what it is.
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  #33  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:13 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Then how does one understand intuition (I won't say define because I have a feeling that will lead to a circular argument)? What exactly is its use?
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  #34  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
The American continent existed long before it was "discovered" by European explorers. Obviously something can exist outside of contemporary science, reasoning, and knowledge. My knowledge of mathemetical theory is insufficient to answer your question, so I will not attempt to do so. But I will say this: going beyond the logical bounds of reason to understand something would probably end up confusing us rather than enlightening us.
the "logical bounds of reason" is what inhibits understanding and knowing. what is the realtion between confusion and enlightenment?
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  #35  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nyx:
Then how does one understand intuition (I won't say define because I have a feeling that will lead to a circular argument)? What exactly is its use?
intuition is understanding. what i am saying here is directness. one can use the intuition to know what is.
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  #36  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
intuition is a subtle mental process that one can become more cognizant of. it involves a certain passive rigour. it is no estimation, it is a knowing of what is. it is not a metaphor. thinking is not seperate, but thinking loudly makes it hard to hear the intuition. by using the "logical" "discursive" faculties, it is easy to lose oneself in re-presentation. and i think no one should be allowed to use the term unconscious, or subconscious without "knowing" what it is.
There is always a reason and the is always an explanaition that ties it all together. Intuition is not some magical power we have. It is fully qualified function of the psyche which can also be explained.
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  #37  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
intuition is a subtle mental process that one can become more cognizant of. it involves a certain passive rigour. it is no estimation, it is a knowing of what is. it is not a metaphor. thinking is not seperate, but thinking loudly makes it hard to hear the intuition. by using the "logical" "discursive" faculties, it is easy to lose oneself in re-presentation. and i think no one should be allowed to use the term unconscious, or subconscious without "knowing" what it is.
You act as though you have all of the answers, but to be quite honest I have yet to see you make a single structured or convincing point.
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  #38  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:22 AM
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  #39  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:23 AM
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The fact that I posted this chart means you should quit arguing what intuition is and read the chart!
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  #40  
Old 04/02/2006, 07:23 AM
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Default Re: What is Time?

Quote:
There is always a reason and the is always an explanaition that ties it all together. Intuition is not some magical power we have. It is fully qualified function of the psyche which can also be explained. [/QB]
i have made no reference to magic. this is a valid point i am making. it is a function. it allows one to see what is. i have explained what it is, and what it is not in my previous posts.

posting a chart does not end the issue. give us something more of why you think the chart is valid. and it doesnt help with the question "what is time"?
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