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View Poll Results: If you are a INTJ of a INTP what do you think about God's existence?
God is real... 2 33.33%
There is no God... 2 33.33%
Who Knows? Im still trying to understand the question! 0 0%
God is an abstract tought! There is no way to find the answer... 2 33.33%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 27/10/2008, 11:24 PM
king king is offline
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
How does the bing bang explains it?

How does it explain the complexity and contruction of the first living organism?

How does it explain the genetic code?
Science= the sum total of critical knowledge gathered throughout history, it is extensively peer reviewed, questioned and criticsed by very very smart people.
Although my understanding of science is limited. My knowledge of scientific criticism is strong enough to allow a degree of trust.

You=enlightned one

Your logical questioning skills are astounding by the way, where did you learn them?

You are attacking scientific process, explain?

Have you read many books, do they have a similar theme?

Do you have an open mind when it comes to your beliefs?

Have they always remained the same?

Have you thought that perhaps evolution and a creator are not mutually exclusive?

Can you describe infinity?

I am not a mushroom!!!!
I am the infinate onion....Do you not understand???
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  #42  
Old 28/10/2008, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
How does the bing bang explains it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
How does it explain the complexity and contruction of the first living organism?
... + =>

... ... + + + =>


... ... ... ... +


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
How does it explain the genetic code?
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  #43  
Old 28/10/2008, 01:55 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
I'm not being ignorantly using God to explain our existence, I'm basing my arguments in facts...in concrete evidence...and I don't use God to explain everything that I don't understand! Am I being ignorant or perceptive?

And why is God the most Illogical explanation?
What makes it so illogical?

My opinion is based on logical interpretation of evidence. You can interpret it in a diferent way if you want but what makes your interpretation more logical than mine? I woud like to know!
What is the evidence to say God exists?

Don't get me wrong, if God did exist, it would be interesting.

Why not say we were created by aliens?
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  #44  
Old 28/10/2008, 03:37 PM
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To actually believe in God ... without hesitation, without feeling one bit awkward, without feeling even slightly embarrassed ... that is something to strive for, isn't it? To be able to ignore the degradation, the humiliation it implies ... To be able to close your eyes at will and decide not to see life for what it is ... but instead to tear up a hole in reality in order to get access to the wonderful light that always keeps shining in the minds of the deluded ...

And then ... after a nice meal at some fine restaurant ... to pay visit to the soulful and silently watch him when he licks and sucks at God in the night ...

... But wait a minute ... maybe it's better to turn on the lights after all ... before the smile of the soulful turns so much inward that it threatens to kill him ...
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  #45  
Old 28/10/2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
Science= the sum total of critical knowledge gathered throughout history, it is extensively peer reviewed, questioned and criticsed by very very smart people.
Although my understanding of science is limited. My knowledge of scientific criticism is strong enough to allow a degree of trust.
You are attacking scientific process, explain?
Have you thought that perhaps evolution and a creator are not mutually exclusive?
We collect information and knowledge to increase our understanding of the world and how things work. We do it to find an answer to our questions, to explain things we don't understand.

I'm not attacking the the scientific process, I'm using it to find an answer to my questions!

I think science points to the existence of an inteligent cause who brought to existence all living things according to their kinds. It's truth that the genetic code within the each specie allows a degree of variation but this always within the specie. This variation is limited to the specie. There is never modification of it's basic caracteristics to the point of becoming something completely diferent of what it is!
It keeps always being the same specie. What proof do we have proving the contrary?

To say that evolution ocurred we must have evidence to prove it. If we can't prove it how can we assume it to be scientific?

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Originally Posted by king View Post
You=enlightned one
I'm not an enlightened one! I'm still collecting information and I'm still questioning and trying to understand it...

Last edited by darkspirit1978; 28/10/2008 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #46  
Old 28/10/2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
We collect information and knowledge to increase our understanding of the world and how things work.
Some of us do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
We do it to find an answer to our questions, to explain things we don't understand.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
I'm not attacking the the scientific process, I'm using it to an answer to my questions!
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
I think science points to the existence of an inteligent cause who brought to existence all living things according to their kinds.
No, it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
It's truth that the genetic code within the each specie allows a degree of variation but this always within the specie. This variation is limited to the specie.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
There is never modification of it's basic caracteristics to the point of becoming something completely diferent of what it is!
False.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
It keeps always being the same specie.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
What proof do we have proving the contrary?
Science and its results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
To say that evolution ocurred we must have evidence to prove it.
Typical statement of a person who doesn't understand what science is and how it works. Natural science is not based on proven statements. It works with hypotheses that we get rid of if, and only if, we can prove them to be false or at least very unlikely to be true. Evolution is the best hypotheses we have at the moment, and it is so unlikely to be false that it is idiotic not to assume that it is probably true in its basic outline at least.

And suddenly we must have evidence to prove that evolution occurred in order to be allowed to say that it occurred ... The light is shining very bright in your mind today, isn't it, Dark Spirit? Fortunately for you, the situation for religious statements about the existence of God are much better than those about evolution ... What a relief!

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978
If we can't prove it how can we assume it to be scientific?
Se above. And please reread the chapters on the philosophy of science in your book from high school. You seem to refresh some fundamentals in that area.
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  #47  
Old 28/10/2008, 05:21 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
We collect information and knowledge to increase our understanding of the world and how things work. We do it to find an answer to our questions, to explain things we don't understand.

I'm not attacking the the scientific process, I'm using it to find an answer to my questions!

I think science points to the existence of an inteligent cause who brought to existence all living things according to their kinds. It's truth that the genetic code within the each specie allows a degree of variation but this always within the specie. This variation is limited to the specie. There is never modification of it's basic caracteristics to the point of becoming something completely diferent of what it is!
It keeps always being the same specie. What proof do we have proving the contrary?

To say that evolution ocurred we must have evidence to prove it. If we can't prove it how can we assume it to be scientific?
Even what you write..genetic code allows variation in a species..so what. It must remain the same species? Do you only try to prove religion by asking questions and making half statements.
Quote:
I'm not an enlightened one! I'm still collecting information and I'm still questioning and trying to understand it...
Complete hocus pocus (the whole quote). Where is your scientific method to show God exists? There is no evidence. However, evolution has been proven. And even if it had not been proven, the scientific method still supports it far more than theories of a God living, perhaps in Sirius or some star.
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  #48  
Old 28/10/2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
Your logical questioning skills are astounding by the way, where did you learn them?
To observe...to question...to aquire knowledge!

To aquire knowledge...to know...to think and analyze!

To think and analyze...to question...to find an answer!

To find an answer...to understand...and to keep questioning!
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  #49  
Old 28/10/2008, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
To observe...to question...to aquire knowledge!

To aquire knowledge...to know...to think and analyze!

To think and analyze...to question...to find an answer!

To find an answer...to understand...and to keep questioning!
Another poem from Dark Spirit's pen ...
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  #50  
Old 28/10/2008, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Another poem from Dark Spirit's pen ...
I didn't know you like reading my poems?

You might learn something, we never know!

Last edited by darkspirit1978; 28/10/2008 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #51  
Old 28/10/2008, 06:24 PM
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I'm trying to understand and comprehend infinity...
Okay, let's see how well you manage that.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
There are no boundaries or limits to infinity, it's never ending...
That is false as a general statement. There are infinities that are clearly limited, especially in comparison with other infinities. There are no boundaries in a sense, but there can be limits where there are no boundaries -- the universe could be an example of that, but we don't know that for sure yet.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
There is no start or begining to it and there is no end...
False again. For example the infinite set of integers has a beginning but no end.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
It's eternal and everlasting.
Not necessarily. You confuse concepts here. Infinity is not eternity.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
We simply can't explain it's existence... it was... it is...and it always will be. It's never ending!
Total bullcrap and nonsense. You don't know what you are talking about. You are just letting your words spin.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
We can not deny infinity even knowing that we can not understand it's existence or explain it.
That your only true statement so far. But it is also utterly trivial.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
The question is: is God infinite?
No. If God exists, he can't be infinite.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
Could God be part of this infinity?
Yes, but that presumes that he can exist. And God, as you probably want to define the concept, can't exist.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything is rearranged!
So you have studied some Newton after all ... That's better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Spirit
Isn't infinity part of the ultimate reality?
There are many infinities, most of them are trivial and of no particular interest to us. There is no problem with infinitity.
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  #52  
Old 28/10/2008, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by king View Post
Have you read many books, do they have a similar theme?
I'm interested in philosophy, psychology and spirituality...I want to understand existence, to understand 'the self' and to understand and explain the scriptures...to question it!

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Originally Posted by King View Post
Do you have an open mind when it comes to your beliefs?
Have they always remained the same?
I think I have an open mind...I didn't always believe in the existence of an inteligent creator...

I questioned it and I try to understand it and explain it.
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  #53  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:07 AM
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To say that evolution ocurred we must have evidence to prove it. If we can't prove it how can we assume it to be scientific?
Newtons theory has never been "proved", however it is a sound functioning scientific theory. Newtonian physics sent people to the moon. Evolution may be a "theory" but as far as theories go it is as sound a Newtons.
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  #54  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
How does the bing bang explains it?

How does it explain the complexity and contruction of the first living organism?

How does it explain the genetic code?
Origins are difficult... but let's start slightly after the origin... Before you and me there was a superior species called Xanous... We served them and we were their slaves. They were truly good. Because of our increasing evilness combined with our inventiveness they decided to vaporize themselves completely (because in their goodness they didn't want us to remember them and how good they were and how silly we were in comparison, like humans compared to horses...), they simply did not want us to remember their goodness and our inferiority (that's how good they realy were, just think about it how amazingly good and almighty they were Halleluja!!). A small mistake was made in their calculation though... the memory of their superiority stayed much longer in some peoples genes than they'd expect and this is the main reason why some of us (with those remembering genes) still believe in God. Another quite reasonable explanation would be that some of us sucked their thumbs too much when being small babies! It is difficult to tell. Anyway what do you make of all this? I like you man!

Regarding complexity and construction of first organism, you see when we start at small levels everything becomes trivial. It is the complex end that appears difficult but the complex end always originates from very simple things you know. I could tell you more about it (if you ask me nicely).

Last edited by Vibration; 29/10/2008 at 12:25 AM.
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  #55  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:49 AM
king king is offline
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
I'm interested in philosophy, psychology and spirituality...I want to understand existence, to understand 'the self' and to understand and explain the scriptures...to question it!



I think I have an open mind...I didn't always believe in the existence of an inteligent creator...

I questioned it and I try to understand it and explain it.
Sounds good my friend, it's a big crazy world, I certainly don't know anyone who can really explain it.
All I'll say is don't become an enemy of science, just because you perceive it to be your enemy.
Let the scientists explain what they can and keep looking beyond it. Don't deny reason but see into the gaps, let the scientists do what they do best and keep doing what you do best. Your spirituality is a gift.
If a creator created the Universe, then a creator created science as well.
the creator created the fundamental, logical and fantastically wonderous laws of physics that govern our existence.

Last edited by king; 29/10/2008 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #56  
Old 29/10/2008, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
What is the evidence to say God exists?

Don't get me wrong, if God did exist, it would be interesting.
I think ancient history registered in the scriptures, (ancient literature) and scientific knowledge points to it...

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Why not say we were created by aliens?
We would still be giving credit to an inteligent cause and instead of aliens why not use the word gods? and why not a single alien, a single God?
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  #57  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:08 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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I think ancient history registered in the scriptures, (ancient literature) and scientific knowledge points to it...
That's nice of you to think that, but unless you can provide evidence to back up what you think, then you shouldn't be believed to be correct.


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We would still be giving credit to an inteligent cause and instead of aliens why not use the word gods? and why not a single alien, a single God?
You are loving the alien? (as the David Bowie song goes )

Perhaps molecular biologists are God's. Or the person who fitted a new lock to the main door here to keep it closed and secure. Both manipulate things.

I think you should clarify what you mean by God.. It might help the communication.
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  #58  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
To actually believe in God...without hesitation, without something to strive for, isn't it? To be able to close your eyes at will and decide not to see life for what it is...but instead to tear up a hole in reality in order to get access to the wonderful light that always keeps shining in the minds of the deluded...
To believe in God without hesitation, without questioning it, without thinking about it, without trying to understand it is to close our eyes.

I hesitated, I questioned it, I'm thinking about it and I'm trying to understand it...

How can you be so sure I'm not seeing life for what it is? And who said God is only light? Isn't he sometimes dark? How can we understand Him when we can not even understand ourselves?

Couldn't evolution theory be man's bigest delusion? A way to escape from a reality that he doesn't want to accept? That he doesn't like?
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  #59  
Old 29/10/2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
I think ancient history registered in the scriptures, (ancient literature) and scientific knowledge points to it...
But they don't, so you think wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit
We would still be giving credit to an inteligent cause and instead of aliens why not use the word gods? and why not a single alien, a single God?
Because such an alien can't exist. It's really very simple. The thing you want to call "God", that "intelligence", the very concept God is logically incoherent in itself, and if we modify it to get rid of the logical contradictions, we are left with a creature that is empirically inconsistent with what we know about the world.

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Originally Posted by darkspirit1978 View Post
To believe in God without hesitation, without questioning it, without thinking about it, without trying to understand it is to close our eyes.

I hesitated, I questioned it, I'm thinking about it and I'm trying to understand it...

How can you be so sure I'm not seeing life for what it is? And who said God is only light? Isn't he sometimes dark? How can we understand Him when we can not even understand ourselves?
If you don't understand, you don't understand. But don't try to hide behind a delusion. I can see you anyway.

And I understand myself almost perfectly. It is not at all impossible to understand ourselves. That is something you can learn to do yourself if you are willing to study Socionics and other theories and science in general. But you must be willing to question your assumptions and start to think critically instead of brainwashing yourself with mumbo jumbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit
Couldn't evolution theory be man's bigest delusion?
Yes, but it is extremely unilikely. And even if evolution theory would turn out to be incorrect, we have no legitimate reason to be in doubt about it now. And there still can't be any God, because the very concept of God is logically incoherent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkspirit
A way to escape from a reality that he doesn't want to accept? That he doesn't like?
No.

Last edited by Prometheus; 29/10/2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #60  
Old 29/10/2008, 04:03 PM
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What prove do we have proving the contrary?

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Science and its results.
So you say the no existence of an inteligent cause and evolution...the modification of the basic characteristics of a living organism to the point of becoming something completely diferent of what it is can be proved by science and it's results...

While I'm saying science and it's results only prove that the contrary is true: it proves that the existence of an inteligent cause is necessary and that despite the existence of a limited degree of variation in an organism there is never modification of it's basic characteristics to the point of becoming something completely diferent of what it is...the genetic code doesn't allow it to happen!

Now if you say science and it's results prove evolution theory to be true and I say science and it's results prove evolution theory to be false, aren't we both trying to use scientific process to answer our questions?

Now I think that to say that evolution ocurred we must have evidence to prove it, and what do you say?

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Typical statement of a person who doesn't understand what science is and how it works. Natural science is not based on proven statements. It works with hypotheses that we get rid of if, and only if, we can prove them to be false or at least very unlikely to be true.
If that is what science is then isn't God part of science, part of this hipotheses?

Now you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Evolution is the best hipotheses we have at the moment, and it is so unlikely to be false that it is idiotic not to assume it is probably true...
Only because you say it to be the best hipotheses it doesn't make it so. You must have proof to back your statement evidence pointing to it...

And what do you say?

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
and suddenly we must have evidence to prove that evolution ocurred in order to be allowed to say that it ocurred...
Yes! If you want to present it as a fact...or at least as the best hipotheses!

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
The light is shining very bright in your mind today, isn't it, Dark spirit?
Yes!

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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
fortunately for you, the situation for religious statements about the existence of God are much better than those about evolution...
Couldn't this be because the existence of an inteligent cause is the best hipotheses?

I rest my case!

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What a relief!
It could be or it could be not...
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