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Old 02/03/2010, 10:28 AM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Default Fi is morals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikisocion, Fi in the dominant position
The individual sees reality primarity through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.
Fi in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.
What do you guys think of this for Fi leading?

Reading this description, it sounds like someone who's highly critical and, dunno, like a practicing Christian or something.

Is Fi really about morals and telling people how to behave and what to do?

Maybe it is just me - but what I like about Fi is compassion, sensitivity, the ability to understand people and act as a social connector. Someone that will use their understanding of inter-personal relations in order to smooth over conflict and have people getting on, make sure everyone is happy within that group. This doesn't have to be done in a "keep the mood happy", just more so like, "hey, i'm going to talk to someone else in the group for a bit, i'm not leaving you to feel excluded", someone who uses their ability to be considerate.

I like some kindness.

So, either it is just me, or maybe the description is wrong, it seems to make it seem rather bloodless. One thing that occured to me is that the form of judgementality it mentions sounds to me more like an ISFj than an INFj. ISFj can be more of a "moral enforcer" if you will.

Thoughts?

It also occured to me, that what i'm describing, maybe sounds more like the description for Fi creative:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikisocion, creative Fi
The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.
So also, if they are both true, to me there seems to be quite a difference, do you think so?
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Old 02/03/2010, 04:31 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Ha, how interesting, the wiki description of ESI:

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...nsing_Introtim

Begins with the exact same quote for their dominant Fi as this page has for dominant Fi in general.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...overted_ethics

How interesting. Perhaps this is because wikisocion has suffered a database corruption, so the information there is less at the moment till it us updated again by Rick & Co, so maybe it will change.

However, it confirms in a way what i've always thought about wikisocion, that to take it with a pinch of salt. For instance, anyone can add something about a function or a type, and for all I know they have the wrong type for themselves to begin with, so more information corruption is likely to occur the more people add to it (given the subjective nature of type in comparison to hard facts of wikipedia), and then more again when people refer to it.
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Old 15/05/2010, 01:49 PM
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Kanerou Kanerou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
Reading this description, it sounds like someone who's highly critical and, dunno, like a practicing Christian or something.
One doesn't have to be a practicing Christian to evaluate people by a moral code. A problem that I find with using the word "morals" is that (I think) the term tends to be interpreted as "Judeo-Christian morals". Setting aside my own feelings on the matter, I know that there are many moral programs in existence and they don't necessarily match mine. Even other Christians' standards are different than the ones I hold; that's just how it is. Maybe "ethical standards" would be a better term. And yes, I do think that Fi-bases judge people based on ethical or unethical behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
So, either it is just me, or maybe the description is wrong, it seems to make it seem rather bloodless. One thing that occured to me is that the form of judgementality it mentions sounds to me more like an ISFj than an INFj. ISFj can be more of a "moral enforcer" if you will.
There isn't any "enforcing" going on in the description, merely evaluation. For example, if I am around someone who drops the f-bomb excessively, I'm not going to tell them to stop; I'll probably just avoid them. In doing so, I have judged the person against my standards without pushing my standards on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
It also occured to me, that what i'm describing, maybe sounds more like the description for Fi creative:

So also, if they are both true, to me there seems to be quite a difference, do you think so?
It could make sense. In Fi-bases, Fi is unhindered by any other function. In Fi-creatives, Fi is subordinate to Ne/Se, so it's not the #1 priority. This post by Rick might help.
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Last edited by Kanerou; 15/05/2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 17/05/2010, 11:14 AM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Any type can be moralistic.

I think it's describing how Fi tends to manifest in Gamma, it's completely different in how it manifests when it's got Ne than Se.

ISFj: I can appreciate the depth of feeling they have, but they can ruin it when they demonstrate them being small minded/and enforcing - for me.

ESFp: Could elaborate more on this one, but don't want to. I find them OK, sometimes really genuinely good people.

@kan, haven't read that link, as I can't where I am just now, but from experience, most of Ricks stuff is nothing better than what I can produce. Thank you for link though, i'll try to remember to open it when I can.
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Old 17/05/2010, 07:57 PM
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Fi is synonymous to internal ethics as that is synonymous to internal morals.
Fi subjectively judges, this is assiciated with like and dislike and personal subjective ideas of what is right and what is wrong.

The ininital statement you selected is perfectly accurate and applies to both gamma and delta. Of course you are correct in stating that Fi manifests itself differently in gamma SFs and Delta NFs, however it is that judgementalism that makes Ti types uncomfortable, whether this is expressed in absolute terms, forcefully, or otherwise.
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Old 24/05/2010, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king View Post
Fi is synonymous to internal ethics as that is synonymous to internal morals.
Fi subjectively judges, this is assiciated with like and dislike and personal subjective ideas of what is right and what is wrong.

The ininital statement you selected is perfectly accurate and applies to both gamma and delta. Of course you are correct in stating that Fi manifests itself differently in gamma SFs and Delta NFs, however it is that judgementalism that makes Ti types uncomfortable, whether this is expressed in absolute terms, forcefully, or otherwise.
Sometimes, TiNe misses the Fi that we use because Fi is not only judgements but it is also directing others to feel and think a certain way.
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Old 02/06/2010, 05:50 PM
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Thought of replying to this before, but wasn't quite sure. I can't speak for Fi-leading types, or about Fi in all types. I believe Fi may or may not concern itself, as it were, with morals, but that's a slightly limited view. As for dictating morals to other people, I don't think that's the main "objective" of the function. I prefer not to, at least generally speaking. I thought this bit lifted off an article might shed some light as to *how* Fi works (apologies to those who have already read this): (author: I/O)

"Introverted output functions rationalize only information that is resident in memory - essentially they are told what is outside; Ti and Fi sort through data trying to understand in order to formulate plans of action. These functions rationalize information with respect to circumstances or issues; however, data acquisition needs to cease before analysis can begin, all information must be static. This interrupt philosophy permits time to consider a broader spectrum of information but can create significant delays in output. If introverted output dominates type, input is suspended when output is working; autonomy will be given to input only when output says it needs more data - the mind can often be closed. This philosophy will not produce timely responses so processing will need to be able to predict and head off potential risks. This is the price one pays to gain perhaps a more complete understanding of an issue or situation for planning purposes; thus, a solid objective or plan is most important for introverted output but all this creates a tendency believe their plan is always right. Note that introverted output only has synergy of operation with extroverted input - both operate autonomously on an interrupt basis."

cheers

PS: maybe i'll add some of my own thoughts on Fi later or some other day...if people still care...

Last edited by felafel; 02/06/2010 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 02/06/2010, 07:23 PM
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Fi is subjective emotional evaluations/feelings towards everything. I can get very sensitive and queezy about the oddest gestures, and pictures, even expressions and intonations of people and things; I usually need a realistic evaluation that things are not what my mind's eye is seeing...makes us a bit paranoid sometimes? IDK. The relationship part for me, comes in picking and choosing the people based on internal qualities that I observe and like about them and holding others in levels away from me, not necessarily breaking them. I've never broken a relation before and I don't think it's something I can or desire to do.
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Old 04/06/2010, 03:34 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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What I find about ISFjs which isn't uncommon ime is that they are hypocritical. For instance, I had one 'disapprove' about me using a swear word over something, only for like within the next minute to talk about some guy that she thinks is hot - talking about the male sex in a degrading physical way. You can bet your ass if I was to start talking about some womens big tits or something then there would be uproar.

Anyway is that a moral judgement by her or just something else. So maybe I don't really understand what all this moral stuff is about.
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Old 04/06/2010, 04:57 PM
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^ looks like that falls in the "do as i say but not as i do" category; sorry about that, lol.

As a side note, i've noticed 1 ESFj and 1 ISFp do sth along the lines of what you describe, Cy. Well, slightly different scenarios and i can't remember the details, but sth long the lines of "not ok that person does this" while at the same time (or @ a later time) doing sth like it themselves.

Also, maybe we can define morals a little, as it pertains to this context at least? So I know i'm not going off on some other direction?

Last edited by felafel; 04/06/2010 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04/06/2010, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
What I find about ISFjs which isn't uncommon ime is that they are hypocritical. For instance, I had one 'disapprove' about me using a swear word over something, only for like within the next minute to talk about some guy that she thinks is hot - talking about the male sex in a degrading physical way. You can bet your ass if I was to start talking about some womens big tits or something then there would be uproar.

Anyway is that a moral judgement by her or just something else. So maybe I don't really understand what all this moral stuff is about.
Wrong type.
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Old 04/06/2010, 08:56 PM
Cyclops Cyclops is offline
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Originally Posted by MDarman View Post
Wrong type.
Well maybe, but fwiw I notice that some women don't like guys swearing, even although personally I don't swear a lot, but it was in the context of the convo, so dunno, possibly.

Maybe we'll expand the conversation to what is morals. I do think there's somewhat differences in applications of it between the types - sort of in general of course, maybe convo in total will get somewhere
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Old 04/06/2010, 09:12 PM
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Funny-ish note re:swearing. I feel slightly less inhibited swearing in English, due to it not being my first lang. I've noticed i almost never swear in my first lang. If you know a 3rd lang. though, that's even better for swearing

PS: Yes, the morals, please do discuss.
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Old 04/06/2010, 10:23 PM
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Kanerou Kanerou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
What I find about ISFjs which isn't uncommon ime is that they are hypocritical. For instance, I had one 'disapprove' about me using a swear word over something, only for like within the next minute to talk about some guy that she thinks is hot - talking about the male sex in a degrading physical way. You can bet your ass if I was to start talking about some womens big tits or something then there would be uproar.

Anyway is that a moral judgement by her or just something else. So maybe I don't really understand what all this moral stuff is about.
How did she talk about him? You don't have to get explicit or anything; I'm just wondering exactly what about her words that you found degrading.

If using that word is against her personal code and she called you on it, then I would say that is a moral judgment.
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Old 04/06/2010, 11:13 PM
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is about standing up for yourself rather than fitting in

Big Five traits are related to Reinin traits:

oppenness - democratic

conscientiousness - farsighted

extraversion - extroverted

agreeableness - merry*

neuroticism - constructivist

*agreeableness is not well-defined and might also refer to positivist or yielding types
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Thanks. Now I understand why Prom thinks you are the most intelligent person at this forum.

Last edited by shadowpuppet; 04/06/2010 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05/06/2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpuppet View Post
is about standing up for yourself rather than fitting in

Big Five traits are related to Reinin traits:

oppenness - democratic

conscientiousness - farsighted

extraversion - extroverted

agreeableness - merry*

neuroticism - constructivist

*agreeableness is not well-defined and might also refer to positivist or yielding types
Yes and I will also add that it's about ethics, the voice of one's conscience to do good and well things; Those who have underdeveloped Fi will do anything necessary to reach a goal, avoiding the feelings of others, avoiding and distroying relationships, betraying friendships, and doing other immoral actions.

Van Gogh, also an EII and my Fi is the reason why we are depressed all the time, because we have all these high standards for ourselves and the world around us and when we don't see it it depresses us and we try to creat a warm environment of Fi to reflect our values, but sometimes, that can not be done, because our feelings begin to disrupt us internally. Actually, our thoughts get overwhelming, not our feelings.
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Old 05/06/2010, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpuppet View Post
is about standing up for yourself rather than fitting in
Not entirely sure about this. According to Filatova, EIIs will follow group norms in order to not insult the people present. Besides, what about Betas? Aren't they just as likely to rock the boat if they don't agree with something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowpuppet View Post
Big Five traits are related to Reinin traits:

oppenness - democratic

conscientiousness - farsighted

extraversion - extroverted

agreeableness - merry*

neuroticism - constructivist

*agreeableness is not well-defined and might also refer to positivist or yielding types
Are you sure you're in the right thread?
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Old 05/06/2010, 03:37 AM
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sorry wrong thread, and anyway that seems like ignoring
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Thanks. Now I understand why Prom thinks you are the most intelligent person at this forum.
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Old 05/06/2010, 04:50 AM
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sorry wrong thread, and anyway that seems like ignoring
What does?
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Old 05/06/2010, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanerou View Post
Not entirely sure about this. According to Filatova, EIIs will follow group norms in order to not insult the people present. Besides, what about Betas? Aren't they just as likely to rock the boat if they don't agree with something?



Are you sure you're in the right thread?
If it goes against our values, we say F the group and fight for the people who are being hurt. That's the way I took that. Look at Darfur and Mia Farrow's struggle with that...she is brave and we like brave..
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