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  #101  
Old 12/03/2006, 08:17 AM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

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Originally posted by Nyx:
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Originally posted by time is being:
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Originally posted by Nyx:
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Originally posted by time is being:
i was thinking of cashing out on your website. just bring speed dating and socionics together and charge people. its brilliant. $$$£££
He'd have competition.
someone is doing this already? if a group of random people showed up, as in speed dating, there would have to be a socionixpert to type and match people quickly. or do people type themselves before showing up to the speed date?
I didn't look into the particulars, but I've encountered socionics-based matchmaking communities online.
but no one does it in person between a group of strangers? like at a party? then charges £££.
i hope SG doesnt mind if i make money off of his website by using my amature socionicist skills that i gained by spending hours logged on, to market a service
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  #102  
Old 12/03/2006, 08:44 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Do I get a percentage?
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  #103  
Old 12/03/2006, 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by SG:
Do I get a percentage?
it depends if i actually go through with it, and how much i make.
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  #104  
Old 12/03/2006, 04:06 PM
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vibration: "Well I think there is much that can thrown away and boiled down to hard core statements or equations. But this is because I use Ti for understanding something. You use Ni for understanding. Ni is like a picture I guess, if you remove the dots from the picture is not as clear anymore. I would see it this way instead: The more data point I have the better the construction of my equations and the more "true" my theory might be."

well vibration, if your Ti was functioning properly, you would see that advocating throwing things away at the beginning of a statement is the antithesis of having more and more data to attempt to draw a theory from, at the end of a statement. and no, you do not have an "understanding" of something if you attempt to simply gather data and draw some hard core statement from that rats nest.
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  #105  
Old 13/03/2006, 07:47 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
vibration: "Well I think there is much that can thrown away and boiled down to hard core statements or equations. But this is because I use Ti for understanding something. You use Ni for understanding. Ni is like a picture I guess, if you remove the dots from the picture is not as clear anymore. I would see it this way instead: The more data point I have the better the construction of my equations and the more "true" my theory might be."

Quote:
well vibration, if your Ti was functioning properly, you would see that advocating throwing things away at the beginning of a statement is the antithesis of having more and more data to attempt to draw a theory from, at the end of a statement.

and no, you do not have an "understanding" of something if you attempt to simply gather data and draw some hard core statement from that rats nest.
Hehe...
Do you realize what it takes to expand, e.g.,
F = m x a into understandable words or pictures that describe the functioning of our world from that specific perspective, and how many observations you have to make to be able to compress (boil down) those observations into
F = m x a and also to prove the validity and applicability of
F = m x a in the world we are living in (maybe we live in different worlds...)?

There are several representations of the world. Each representation is valid.

Essence:
Your inprinted Ni-clay ball might be equivalent to an equation. Every new inprint will calibrate your understanding of the world.

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  #106  
Old 13/03/2006, 08:55 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

rmcnew gives a bit of an insight on his site scion.info with his functional analysis of N. one important word in that analysis is "databank". although this word seems to imply a gathering of information, i think it may be more accurate to see N as a ball of putty or clay that impressions are stamped on instead of the networking metaphors that are brought to mind using his terminology. the intuitional understanding becomes stronger amd deeper and longer lasting from the impressions until the inutition is stretched so thin that no distinction can be made between the stamp and stamped. (good website by the way)
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  #107  
Old 13/03/2006, 01:59 PM
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indeed, there are several re-presentations of the world. each re-presentation is NOT valid. if you want to understand the world, do you re-present it, or do you present it?

do you realize what you mean when you say "boil down" in the context of newtons discoveries? he made observations, yes, but did not make countless observations like a monkey doing a math problem. newton's ideas were not held valid by the scientific community, yet he held them valid. his ideas could not be proven at the time because the observations could not be made in the absence of friction and gravity. his intuition told him that f=ma was valid because he understood wholeness, i.e. he understood the mathematics/calculus and the profound interrelations could not be denied. modern physics and calculus were born of the same mind, at the same time. science now holds his ideas to be LAWS.

you can keep your insistance that Sensing is more real than Intuition. that is simply a re-presentation. you will get no further to understanding reality than where you are now if you continue with a blind faith in mindless empiricism.

the analogy of a clay ball is nothing like an equation. a mathematical equation is an unchanging structure. remember, the clay ball must be imprinted in such a manner that the stamp and clay are indifferentiable.
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  #108  
Old 13/03/2006, 03:17 PM
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indeed, there are several re-presentations of the world. each re-presentation is NOT valid.
This might be the core of our misunderstanding maybe… How do you determine what’s NOT valid?
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if you want to understand the world, do you re-present it, or do you present it?
Hehehe… If I want to understand the world I’ll have to unite its elements. If I explain (present) my findings to you it would be in the form of a relation, a similarity, an equation. Me myself would NEVER represent the world (because neither me (or you for that matter) ARE the world). The world is me and you but the world is also much bigger than the two of us you know.
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do you realize what you mean when you say "boil down" in the context of newtons discoveries?
Yes. The guy saw the essence, the connection, the functionality, the “cause and effect structure” in objects.
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he made observations, yes, but did not make countless observations like a monkey doing a math problem. newton's ideas were not held valid by the scientific community, yet he held them valid. his ideas could not be proven at the time because the observations could not be made in the absence of friction and gravity. his intuition told him that f=ma was valid because he understood wholeness, i.e. he understood the mathematics/calculus and the profound interrelations could not be denied. modern physics and calculus were born of the same mind, at the same time. science now holds his ideas to be LAWS.
I agree completely. This really proves my point. Newton cut out all crap and described the essence in equations. Thanks.
Quote:
you can keep your insistance that Sensing is more real than Intuition. that is simply a re-presentation. you will get no further to understanding reality than where you are now if you continue with a blind faith in mindless empiricism.
If your eyes are defect than your intuition might misinterpret everything I say, because you're watching a computer screen right now, aren’t you...?
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the analogy of a clay ball is nothing like an equation. a mathematical equation is an unchanging structure.
Well every clay ball has it flaws I guess. The clay ball can be deformed with time but the truth is timeless…
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remember, the clay ball must be imprinted in such a manner that the stamp and clay are indifferentiable.
I really like you, you know. Your megalomania stuff is starting to make imprints in my clay ball. Haha!
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  #109  
Old 13/03/2006, 05:25 PM
time is being time is being is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

your clay ball is dry and flaky.

the implicit argument that you continue to posit is that understanding something comes from looking at something else. objects do not have a cause and effect structure. to try and understand something by always looking causally will leave you chasing your tail. newton did not see "cause and effect". he saw what is, he saw the essence. and if you think the essence is cause and effect, then you are wrong.

a trained monkey can perform calculus problems, only a human can understand it and solve problems it has never seen before. what do i mean by understanding, other than the stamp and clay being indifferentiable? nothing less than the self internalizing other to the point of becoming self. how should you understand what i have just written? in the same manner that i have just written. anything less would be a re-presentation and invalid. his equations must be understood in this manner to be understood at all. go back and look, newton spent the last 75% of his life writing his own sort of religion.

Charlene Spretnak: "There are sacred moments in life when we experience in rational and very direct ways that separation, the boundary between ourselves and other people and between ourselves and Nature, is illusion. Oneness is reality. We can experience that stasis is illusory and that reality is continual flux and change on very subtle and also on gross levels of perception . ."
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  #110  
Old 13/03/2006, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:
a trained monkey can perform calculus problems, only a human can understand it and solve problems it has never seen before.
Don't overestimate humans my friend, there are monkeys that are more clever than some humans.
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  #111  
Old 13/03/2006, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

[/qb][/quote]Don't overestimate humans my friend, there are monkeys that are more clever than some humans. [/QB][/quote]

i can see that
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  #112  
Old 14/03/2006, 09:49 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

[quote]Originally posted by time is being:

Quote:
the implicit argument that you continue to posit is that understanding something comes from looking at something else.
Show that there is nothing but absolute understanding (and that relative understanding is meaningless).

Quote:
objects do not have a cause and effect structure.
Prove it and you might get the Nobel Prize.

Quote:
to try and understand something by always looking causally will leave you chasing your tail. newton did not see "cause and effect".
If you read about F=m x a and correlate your understanding with your experience from a ride in a roller coaster then you might see what I mean. People feel their mass, m, and they feel they get heavier when they accelerate or deccelerate, a, their bodies. Some clever people draw conclusions from this and are able define acceleration, mass and invent something called force and to boil down their conclusions into mathematics.
The final mathematical expression symbolizes their understanding. If Newton were a poet he might have written down a poem instead.

I’m sorry but I cannot come up with a better example than an equation to demonstrate “cause and effect” in its most sublime (=shortest, compressed, compacted, simplest etcetcetc) form.
F = m x a, symbolizes understanding. It IS not understanding. Understanding is in our minds. Maybe we are just talking about different things?

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what do i mean by understanding, other than the stamp and clay being indifferentiable?
Only God knows...

Quote:
nothing less than the self internalizing other to the point of becoming self. how should you understand what i have just written? in the same manner that i have just written. anything less would be a re-presentation and invalid.
Do you believe that you can see absolute thruth and communicate the absolute truth?

Quote:
his equations must be understood in this manner to be understood at all.
Well I just showed you how F = m x a can be understood. Did you know that
F = m x a is also valid for atoms and small to very large molecules? Newton did not know that. He was lucky to find essence I’m glad he shared it.

Quote:
Charlene Spretnak: "There are sacred moments in life when we experience in rational and very direct ways that separation, the boundary between ourselves and other people and between ourselves and Nature, is illusion. Oneness is reality. We can experience that stasis is illusory and that reality is continual flux and change on very subtle and also on gross levels of perception . ."
This is ONE way of expressing ones understanding of the world.
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  #113  
Old 14/03/2006, 03:29 PM
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vibration: "Do you believe that you can see absolute thruth and communicate the absolute truth?"

yes. the first articulation of this comes from plato. he did not waffle and was very direct about the absolute. furthermore, jung's understanding has much in common with plato, the temperaments/types being only one of countless borrowings. why did jung place the collective unconcious below the individual conscious? how could delving into the self lead to the collective unconcious? what implications does this have for socionics as socionics has its foundations in jungian psychology?

and why hasnt the contemporary era's relation to truth been questioned? didn't nietsche already prove that this habit of relativizing everything leads to nihhilsm? do you think that reality is meaningless? that is the conclusion of what you are saying. newton, who you have cited, would disagree and be dismayed.
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  #114  
Old 14/03/2006, 03:35 PM
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there is only one way of expressing understanding. if the understanding is not expressed, then it is not understood. do not misunderstand: understanding and expression are one. the idea that each person has his/her own idea and expresses it in his/her own way is preposterous, because it is an idea.
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  #115  
Old 15/03/2006, 04:04 AM
Vibration Vibration is offline
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally posted by Vibration:

vibration: "Do you believe that you can see absolute thruth and communicate the absolute truth?"

time is being:
yes.
Well I believe in absolute truth as well. But I feel rediculous when I say it. It sounds like a meaningless statement, a game with words, when I analyse it.

You see, the important words I’m using are:

(I), (believe), (absolute), (truth)

These words are vague and need to be defined. In order for us to define them we need to agree on some definitions of those words: (I), (believe), (absolute), (truth). When we define the words, our definition cannot contain the words (I), (believe), (absolute), (truth) or else we would be talking in circles, -it would be a circular evidence and circular evidences are meaningless).

Okey suppose we agree on a definition of the words (I), (believe), (absolute), (truth), then the new words in our definitions have to be defined as well, right?
Can you show me exactly where it stops?
In other words: When do I know EXACTLY what YOU mean, and when do YOU know EXACTLY that I know EXACTLY that YOU know EXACTLY that I know...?

If we both don’t know EXACTLY what we’re talking about then we can not claim that we have found ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Or with other words our understanding of eachothers understanding of ABSOLUTE TRUTH would be relative...
Tough shit huh?

Maybe the absolute truth can be gained by iterating the above process (defining words in definitions defining words in definitions defining words in definitions defining words in...)) until we have agreed upon some understanding, but still... it’s just an agreement between you and me.

But as I said somewhere before at this forum: “we might as well be looking at ourselves in the mirror”. WE are the definers of our own definitions and WE are the understanders of our own definitions...

I’m not saying it’s meaningless to seek for absolute truth but...
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  #116  
Old 15/03/2006, 01:42 PM
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the only person it is tough for is you, as you seem to enjoy chasing your own tail and always defining something in terms of something else, instead of seeing something as it is. i know exactly what i am talking about, and am imploring you to do the same. indeed, you are "looking at yourself in the mirror" as you use parts of my posts to reinforce your ideas.

too bad the claim that "absolute truth is relative" is a truth claim. albeit a false one as any truth that is relative cannot be truth. and no, we do not create our own little unverse inside our head.

and stop believing. that implies acceptance without evidence. you may find this helpful as it approaches the issue from a western/logical framework: http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/phenandexist.html take note of "intuition" and "essense". two very important topics for socionicists.
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  #117  
Old 15/03/2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by time is being:


"understanding and expression are one"

"i know exactly what i am talking about"

The highest of the highest...

King Kong...
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  #118  
Old 16/03/2006, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: Belief and Intelligence

Even if there is absolute truth, it can't be communicated because communication in itself is flawed. We would have to be absolute beeings to see and understand absolute truth and to communicate it.

Regarding belief, it seems to be easier to believe if one does not ask too many questions, so intelligence could be a disadvantage to believe. But intlligence does lead to a higher awareness of consequences, and should a very intelligent person fell very ill, he would know that he most likely dies, and therefore would have so much fear that he would believe in something. At least that is what i experienced in hospital very often - it is easier to die if you are not that informed and questioning.
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  #119  
Old 16/03/2006, 02:08 PM
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Even if there is absolute truth, it can't be communicated because communication in itself is flawed. We would have to be absolute beeings to see and understand absolute truth and to communicate it.
THIS I can believe in. I am glad that you’re not an imaginary grandiose monster monkey.

Quote:
Regarding belief, it seems to be easier to believe if one does not ask too many questions, so intelligence could be a disadvantage to believe. But intlligence does lead to a higher awareness of consequences, and should a very intelligent person fell very ill, he would know that he most likely dies, and therefore would have so much fear that he would believe in something. At least that is what i experienced in hospital very often - it is easier to die if you are not that informed and questioning.
This really verifies that you’re not from the planet of the apes.

I like you.

(Sorry if you don't understand but monkeys make me mad)
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  #120  
Old 16/03/2006, 02:49 PM
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are we not absolute beings? dasein? and i refuse to believe in anything. i require proof.
http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/7b.htm
you cant trust other peoples judgment; look at the popularity of cold play and naziism in the past.

communication is only flawed if your understanding is flawed. there is only one way of expressing understanding. if the understanding is not expressed, then it is not understood. do not misunderstand: understanding and expression are one. the idea that each person has his/her own idea and expresses it in his/her own way is preposterous, because it is an idea. if someone does not understand, then they have not expressed. true, i cant force someone to express, but then they cant complain if they dont understand.
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