Socionics Forums

Socionics Forums (http://www.socionics.com/forums/index.php)
-   Ramble Mumble (http://www.socionics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Belief and Intelligence (http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39)

Epic 28/02/2006 09:29 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
I think that this would be true if it were tested, even by using an IQ score for the definition of intelligence. Also, from an informational perspective you can look at intelligence as how much information is available for processing. When typically intelligent people are in a nearly hopeless or unpredictable circumstance do they tend to believe in things more readily? So if that is true intelligence can be characterized by information available for processing. less intelligent people find reality consistently more unpredictable because for whatever reason they cannot weigh all of the information simultaneously/multidimensionally. They see something and they respond immediately to it as they see it. So intelligence has alot to do with the relationship to the environment. If what is external looks like what is internal, then there is understanding, if what the environment is like is different, then there is a correction and the environment gets the better of you.

http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...lins/horse.gif

Jonathan 01/03/2006 06:39 AM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
I think that in the spirit of recognizing that there are different types, it also makes sense to recognize that there are different kinds of intelligence. Skepticism is one kind of intelligence.
....And yet (and this is a slightly different but related point to the first one), simple inspection seems to reveal that the cause of a willingness to believe can be due both to lack of intelligence or other factors.
....A person can understand all the various problems and uncertainties, and still choose to have a particular belief...in God, for instance. A person can understand all the reasons why someone wouldn't believe, and still say, "You know what, I'm in bigger trouble for not believing in God if God exists than I would be for believing in God if God doesn't exist."
.....Or a person, despite the recognition of other ways of explaining phenomena, might still decide that things seem to go better when that person thinks in terms of a relationship with God.
.....Or a person may simply feel that a relationship with God is morally right on some level.
......So a person can make a choice, as many people, both brilliant and simple, have done in the past, either to have a particular belief, or not to have it. And that doesn't prove intelligence or the lack thereof.

SG 01/03/2006 08:43 AM

Belief and Intelligence
 
Let's just have one more go at this, shall we?

I personally think that readiness to believe in something is in reverse proportion to one's intelligence. Take magicians for example. You would normally wonder how do they do it, because you know it is a trick and yet the less gifted of us still manage to believe that you can bend a fork with the power of your mind. Imagine what happens when the trick part is not obvious...

SG 01/03/2006 10:03 AM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Belief in god is based on fear and it doesn't matter how intelligent you are if you're scared that's what you get, so this is sort of irrelevant to the point made.

Bone_Roller 01/03/2006 06:55 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
SG: I personally think that readiness to believe in something is in reverse proportion to one's intelligence.

I would agree with that SG, but there is more to it. Lack of education, or bad education often leads people to belief. And there is always the eternal influence of what we want to believe: our hope.

Everyone believes something, how many people are fully aware of what they believe? And if they become aware, how quickly would they discard it?

SG 01/03/2006 06:58 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bone_Roller:

Everyone believes something, how many people are fully aware of what they believe? And if they become aware, how quickly would they discard it?
Good point!

Epic 01/03/2006 07:04 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
I suppose the "fear" interpretation is relative to my interpretation in that many people in times where they lack "intelligence" turn to god for hope. So I assume if you look at intelligence as a knowledge or proficiency that is transient(like familiarity of an area, the ability to deliver a correct response regardless of underlying processes) and is not necessarily based on IQ or anything like that- it is a human universal.

There is this girl in one of my classes. She sits there every class and complains about herself and her life and how incapable she is. she has alot of acne and to me it is a potential symptom of spending many hours in bed or some sideffect of depression. The professor mentioned an example of someone with really good attention and she goes "i wish i were smart like that" or "gosh, i study for hours every night and I still don't pass my classes" the professor also told the clas that the test would be postponed, and she personally got up and thanked him for it. Now for whatever reason this person is "trapped" in her own sense of inadequacy. It is to the point where it is comical. Everything goes wrong for her, and she always says "why does this always happen to me!?" when the fault is based upon her own ignorance or carelessness. "I have a learning disorder, i can't take this work load" she'll say. It's to the point where it makes you like her, because she is so amusing. She is completely unaware of how ridiculous she comes across as. She has found her role, I guess.

Well, while I was leaving class I caught a glimpse of her binder, which had a giant sticker of the twin towers and said "We will never forget" It seemed fitting. She has to keep reminding herself and others not to forget but doesn't seem to remember why or for what specific reason. http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...s/rolleyes.gif

Many things go into what one might consider to be intelligence. There are many constructs to define it as well- such as performance and competence. I'll spout some basic introductory college terms for this: Performance is usually referred to the measured outcome, whether the answer is right or wrong in a controlled environment. Competence is not easily tested because it is pretty much a subjective term, but more deals with real life, not tests. Let's say a person get's 60 percent of their answers wrong, but all of the answers that really "matter" in their context, they get right, or nomatter what their answers exhibit some form of influence which leads others to the correct answer- is that a lack of intelligence? what I am saying is that there are many ways to measure intelligence. Like take cognition- we have 5 senses which contribute to learning, and each sense also has its own receptors, making in reality many millions of independent "senses" which all integrate in the mind. We all have our own pattern and combination of these, and sometimes intelligence can be "manufactured" out of just the right context- while also it can be inborn out of a superior ability to integrate(introvert) and express (extrovert) information necessary in a given context. some people just plain suck at doing this for whatever reason- but that's my opinion and what matters to me is based upon my own needs, assumptions and weaknesses.

SG 01/03/2006 07:15 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Dictionary definition of intelligence:

a. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge. (Practically Te http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tes.gif )
b. The faculty of thought and reason. (Practically Ti http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tis.gif )

Epic 01/03/2006 07:35 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
But the definition has to change when you test it. each word in the definition has to be represented objectively in experimentation. such as "capacity" "acquire" and "apply" an IQ test does this, but what it is really testing is how well a person takes an IQ test http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tes.gif , it doesn't measure what is going on inside http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tis.gif

So with an IQ test the definition of intelligence is:

"The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge in and on the given IQ test"

It has no idea, however, what is REALLY going on inside.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying that the definitions mutate based upon the constructs they represent.

SG 01/03/2006 07:43 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
I am not trying to argue either. I just thought it is quite interesting that the common definition of intelligence is http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tes.gif + http://intjworld.com/forums/ubbthrea...emlins/Tis.gif

Epic 02/03/2006 08:01 AM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
it really is interesting. perhaps words/ideas string in similar ways as functions do. Also verbs and adjective are like sensing, like "run" can be considered Se, which is extraverted, whereas "tired" is a consequence and is also an adjective and can be attributed to introverted sensing.

SG 02/03/2006 08:06 AM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Yeah, I think you can pretty much detect which function would react to which word.

Nyx 02/03/2006 01:59 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Rather a far reaching conclusion I would not make. There are different types of intelligence, not simply logical reasoning. (Otherwise we would have to conclude that F types were somehow mentally inferior to T types, and that I won't do) There are cultural and social influences as well. Not everyone is raised with top-flight ivy league education and has been given the mental tools to decipher natural puzzles with logic.

alphaquerist 02/03/2006 06:07 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Thanx Nyx for writing what you did. I'll add a couple of my own points to what u have already written -

First of all everybody does not Need "top-flight ivy league education."
The education some people recommend so highly is one which is in NO way a necessarily enlightening or an intelligence-promoting education. A lot of what goes on in the name of education is just catering to the market. Through what is seen as education, one learns how to fit into a world where one is only as good as their money-generating abilities.Schools and colleges produce pass-outs who think that they know their mind but are obviously being led by subliminal messages from the society on what is desirable (worldly success ) and what will keep the markets alive. This is a sad truth.They are grist for a money-spinning only machine. If education through its syllabi promotes something , it does so with a purpose. Also in promoting something u obviously have to choose something to leave out. In so doing often it is only a one-sided tale that is promoted.

What is the consequence of promoting only a one-sided agenda ? The first is the human cost. where everything is seen only in end terms of the money generated there is a high degree of pressure on people. Also it isolates them from others because the society teaches them to value supposed independence derived from material goods alone.

None of what I've written is any eastern esoteric myth /wisdom only. U'll find it all in the works of Eric Fromm - the sane society . As also in the biographies of Victor Frakl.

The reason y I mentioned all this is that intelligence is many sided as also is understanding . When someone is able to see a thing in its abstraction, its complete essence or make sense out of randomness they maybe said to use their intuition and understanding. If u keep looking for empiric values to substantiate ur understanding of intelligence then u can go only so far. Some things are not observable but can only be felt. Often the problem in scientific experiments is that they follow an empiric value which does not necessarily take into account the interaction of the subject with the very experiment!!! So even in experimenting u have already introduced a sense of artificiality/simulated conditions.

Also I agree with Jonathon that belief and intelligence are not mutually exclusive concepts. Both may co-exist for a variety of reasons.

ok now the moral of the story -- I am a staunch aetheist, but I certainly don't think that ppl who believe in anything beyond the observable are morons/less intelligent. Albert Einstein believed in god. Shall we call him unintelligent by the definitions provided here?

SG 02/03/2006 07:46 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Nyx:
There are different types of intelligence, not simply logical reasoning.
Yeah yeah, now give us an example!

SG 02/03/2006 09:08 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Don't change the subject! Come on let's hear about different types of intelligence.

Nyx 02/03/2006 09:09 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SG:
Don't change the subject! Come on let's hear about different types of intelligence.
Don't avoid the question.

SG 02/03/2006 09:35 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Let's say someone comes from out of space to Earth and looks at churches, mosques, synagogues, etc, god worshipping everywhere you look. What would they think? Would they think that there is indeed god or would they think that there is no god and the population of Earth just went bonkers? Now, that's the effect society has on a child. Unless you grow up in a strongly atheistic environment you may never even question if god exists. Does it make you less intelligent? That's why belief in god is in many ways irrelevant to this argument.

And by the way fear cripples abilities to reason.

Now it is your turn.

Nyx 02/03/2006 09:54 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
May I ask, then, why your statement in the beginning was such a sweeping generalization, rather than an argument only pertaining to specific beliefs?

I already answered your question.

SG 02/03/2006 10:08 PM

Re: Belief and Intelligence
 
Because there are probably more less intelligent and less more intelligent people among those who believe in god.

Can anyone give an example of a different intelligence?


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:04 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 SOCIONICS.COM