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RSV3 30/06/2008 07:21 AM

The impact of subtype on intertype relationships
 
The impact of subtype on intertype relationships

Has anyone ever wondered how one's subtype affects their intertype relationships? Me too! Let's look at how subtype affects one of the more important intertype relationships: the dual relationship. Subtype does have an impact on dual relations, and for the purpose of this discussion, let's use ENFp-Fi and ISTp-Te as an example. Most people are well aware that Si compliments Ne, Te compliments Fi and so forth. As such, an ENFp-Fi will be best matched with an ISTp-Te. (Note that I believe that the strength of one's subtype is a spectrum, i.e., continuous; thus, one could be balanced between his two leading functions, favor one strongly, weakly, etc.) Great, but what about an ENFp-Fi paried with an ISTp-Si? Well, for the sake of making the example clear, let's say each partner has a very strong subtype.

The ENFp-Fi will have a strong Fi, this suppresses (or weakens) two functions in his mental block (it also impacts his vital block, but I'm not going to get into that right now): his leading Ne function and his PoLR Ti function. Suppression of both his Ne and Ti will lead to an increased expression and strength of his role Se function. To use numbers for demonstrative purposes, we have an ego block of 90% Fi, 10% Ne and a super ego block of 90% Se and 10% Ti. What does this indicate, an ENFp with a strong Fi subtype will begin to resemble an ESFp, or the ENFp's look-a-like. Do the same analysis for the ISTp with the strong Si subtype and you find she/he begins to resemble an ISFp, or his comparative. Now what do you get when you match an ISFp with an ESFp? Nothing great: an extinguishing or contrary relationship. In conclusion if you and your "dual" have strongly conflicting subtypes, maybe the relationship will have problems. In the above case, the ENFp-Fi may want to consider an INTp-Te (assuming he can't find an ISTp-Te). Let's say the ENFp has no subtype preference (i.e., he is balanced between his leading and creative function), and he is paired up with an ISTp-Si again. What's the relationship outlook this time? Much better, but still not ideal. In this scenario, you again have the ISTp beginning to resemble an ISFp, so the relationship will begin to resemble a semi-dual relationship.

The above example using the dual relationship just highlights the potential impact that an extreme subtype can have on a relationship. The analysis used above is appliable to all the other 15 intertype relationships as well. Think that I've gone of the Ti+Ne deep end? :D If you don't believe me, go ask some people who've been in a "dual" relationship that really resembled more of a contrary relationship. Thoughts?

SG 30/06/2008 07:40 AM

I disagree with the complimentary functions and therefore best matching hypothesis. In my experience ENFp with F subtype would match better with ISTp with S subtype and vice versa.

Cyclops 04/07/2008 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SG (Post 13230)
I disagree with the complimentary functions and therefore best matching hypothesis. In my experience ENFp with F subtype would match better with ISTp with S subtype and vice versa.

Why do you think this is?

Dewy 05/07/2008 04:09 AM

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but here are my thoughts on the matter.

I feel that this theory is entirely sound in logical basis and that to say that it isn't is to say that the entire theory of Model A and intertype relations is completely flawed. I think that it is not readily apparent in the same way that people will not always see the value of their dual immediately. For instance, take an Ne-ENTp. I'm sure that we can all agree that Ne-ENTp tends to put a greater emphasis on Fe in their dealings with others. This is an empirical observation, but I feel that it is supported by the idea that ENTp will seek Si as a balance to Ne base and have a Hidden Agenda Fe to balance out Ti creativity. If you believe in this principle (which founds intertype relations) then the rest should be a pretty logical fall out. If you think of it in emphasis and say that you have more Ne that means you will naturally have less emphasis on Ti. Subsequently, on a reasoning of scale, that means you will have less emphasis on Si and more emphasis on Fe. From there it makes sense that you will have a greater need for Si to make up for you lack thereof and less need for Fe.


The issue of empirical evidence comes in because if you have increased emphasis on you HA, Fe in the Ne-ENTp example for instance, then you will more readily associate with others who value that function. It's the same idea as the attraction of your mirror. You share a lot in common with your mirror and identical so it will often be easier to connect with them immediately. Similarly, an Ne-ENTp will connect more immediately with an Fe-valuer (I have a theory that sub-type can also determine general quadra preferences as well, but that's an entirely different story) because they Fe is more obvious and natural to them. But is that what they need to balance out their needs? No, they need Si, which will not be immediately obvious to them. It's the same reason why, if you ask an INTj if they like crazy Fe-leaders the concept will usually seem absurd at first, but it will come to grow on them with the experience.

complicater-complexer 06/07/2008 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13228)
The impact of subtype on intertype relationships


Has anyone ever wondered how one's subtype affects their intertype relationships? Me too! Let's look at how subtype affects one of the more important intertype relationships: the dual relationship. Subtype does have an impact on dual relations, and for the purpose of this discussion, let's use ENFp-Fi and ISTp-Te as an example. Most people are well aware that Si compliments Ne, Te compliments Fi and so forth. As such, an ENFp-Fi will be best matched with an ISTp-Te. (Note that I believe that the strength of one's subtype is a spectrum, i.e., continuous; thus, one could be balanced between his two leading functions, favor one strongly, weakly, etc.) Great, but what about an ENFp-Fi paried with an ISTp-Si? Well, for the sake of making the example clear, let's say each partner has a very strong subtype.

The ENFp-Fi will have a strong Fi, this suppresses (or weakens) two functions in his mental block (it also impacts his vital block, but I'm not going to get into that right now): his leading Ne function and his PoLR Ti function. Suppression of both his Ne and Ti will lead to an increased expression and strength of his role Se function. To use numbers for demonstrative purposes, we have an ego block of 90% Fi, 10% Ne and a super ego block of 90% Se and 10% Ti. What does this indicate, an ENFp with a strong Fi subtype will begin to resemble an ESFp, or the ENFp's look-a-like. Do the same analysis for the ISTp with the strong Si subtype and you find she/he begins to resemble an ISFp, or his comparative. Now what do you get when you match an ISFp with an ESFp? Nothing great: an extinguishing or contrary relationship. In conclusion if you and your "dual" have strongly conflicting subtypes, maybe the relationship will have problems. In the above case, the ENFp-Fi may want to consider an INTp-Te (assuming he can't find an ISTp-Te). Let's say the ENFp has no subtype preference (i.e., he is balanced between his leading and creative function), and he is paired up with an ISTp-Si again. What's the relationship outlook this time? Much better, but still not ideal. In this scenario, you again have the ISTp beginning to resemble an ISFp, so the relationship will begin to resemble a semi-dual relationship.

The above example using the dual relationship just highlights the potential impact that an extreme subtype can have on a relationship. The analysis used above is appliable to all the other 15 intertype relationships as well. Think that I've gone of the Ti+Ne deep end? :D If you don't believe me, go ask some people who've been in a "dual" relationship that really resembled more of a contrary relationship. Thoughts?

According to socionics theory a relationship is independant of the subtypes. SO here an ENFp and an ISTp can't be in a contrary relationship, they have to be duals.

Now maybe the subtype of each of the different parts of the relationship does have an effect on the relationship like for instance its degree of compatibility but the relationship must still have the characteristics of the kind of relationship. As a result the level of compatibility must be high in a dual relationship because it must be still categorized as a dual relationship no matter what the subtypes are.

RSV3 06/07/2008 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by complicater-complexer (Post 13492)
According to socionics theory a relationship is independant of the subtypes. SO here an ENFp and an ISTp can't be in a contrary relationship, they have to be duals.

Now maybe the subtype of each of the different parts of the relationship does have an effect on the relationship like for instance its degree of compatibility but the relationship must still have the characteristics of the kind of relationship. As a result the level of compatibility must be high in a dual relationship because it must be still categorized as a dual relationship no matter what the subtypes are.

Just because a relationship is "categorized" as a dual relationship does not mean that each one will have the "characteristics" of a dual relationship like you suggest. If two people in a "dual" relationship have strongly opposing subtypes, then they won't necessarily be in a contrary relationship per se, but there will be some characteristics of a contrary relationship that start to manifest.

complicater-complexer 06/07/2008 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13496)
Just because a relationship is "categorized" as a dual relationship does not mean that each one will have the "characteristics" of a dual relationship like you suggest. If two people in a "dual" relationship have strongly opposing subtypes, then they won't necessarily be in a contrary relationship per se, but there will be some characteristics of a contrary relationship that start to manifest.

OK that might happen as I said. But even if that happens the compatibility must remain high enough for the relationship to remain a duality relationship. There might be moments of contrary relationship, but the overall impression of the relationship is a duality one.

RSV3 06/07/2008 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by complicater-complexer (Post 13497)
OK that might happen as I said. But even if that happens the compatibility must remain high enough for the relationship to remain a duality relationship. There might be moments of contrary relationship, but the overall impression of the relationship is a duality one.

I still think we see things differently. I'm saying that any ENFp-ISTp relationship will always be categorized as a dual relationship per classical socionics. But I'm also saying that strongly conflicting subtypes will probably make the relationship have more characteristics of a contrary relationship than a dual relationship.

As Cyclops, Dewy, and I have been discussing, I feel that for the classical characteristics of dualization to occur for an ENFp-ISTp, the strength of the Te must line up and compliment the strength of the other's Fi, the strengh of the Si must line up and compliment the strengh of the other's Ne, and so forth. And if there are opposing subtypes, this won't happen and true dualization won't occur.

I mean frankly, you can look at dualization as the synergistic effect of complimentary information elements in Model A. And the strengh of each of those information elements (as determined by one's subtype preference), will determine how much synergy is present, and thus, how much dualization can occur.

complicater-complexer 06/07/2008 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13500)
I still think we see things differently. I'm saying that any ENFp-ISTp relationship will always be categorized as a dual relationship per classical socionics. But I'm also saying that strongly conflicting subtypes will probably make the relationship have more characteristics of a contrary relationship than a dual relationship.

I think here we should ask an importatn question: what is the definition of a duality of relationship? that would allows us know what causes what.

Dewy 07/07/2008 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13500)
I still think we see things differently. I'm saying that any ENFp-ISTp relationship will always be categorized as a dual relationship per classical socionics. But I'm also saying that strongly conflicting subtypes will probably make the relationship have more characteristics of a contrary relationship than a dual relationship.

As Cyclops, Dewy, and I have been discussing, I feel that for the classical characteristics of dualization to occur for an ENFp-ISTp, the strength of the Te must line up and compliment the strength of the other's Fi, the strengh of the Si must line up and compliment the strengh of the other's Ne, and so forth. And if there are opposing subtypes, this won't happen and true dualization won't occur.

I mean frankly, you can look at dualization as the synergistic effect of complimentary information elements in Model A. And the strengh of each of those information elements (as determined by one's subtype preference), will determine how much synergy is present, and thus, how much dualization can occur.

I don't think there's much I can add to what you've been saying here because our thoughts on the matter seem to mesh rather nicely.

I don't agree with your comment that non-complementary sub-types will create a contrary relationship. That should never happen within your own quadra. I don't feel that opposite strengths in subtype is conflicting, that seems to undermine the concept of semi-duality, for instance. Rather, I believe that you create a relationship somewhere between dualization and activation. While complementary subtypes (Si-Ne, Te-Fi, Ni-Se, Ti-Fe) create a sensation of true duality by balancing out strengths and weaknesses, non-complementary, but still dualizing sub-types (Si-Fi/Ti, Te-Ne/Se, Ni-Ti/Fi, Fe-Si/Ni, Se-Te/Fe, Ti-Ni/Si, Ne-Te/Fe, Fi-Ni/Si) will create the same functional relationship as an activity relationship, but with suited temperaments. I think that it will be harder for a sub-type to recognize their sub-type dual than a base type because the contrast is larger and they are more imbalanced in their functional use.

What I wonder, however, is how the difference between creative and base sub-types will affect the ability to recognize one's dual. Additionally, how temperament comes to play in different sub-types.

RSV3 07/07/2008 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewy (Post 13527)
I don't think there's much I can add to what you've been saying here because our thoughts on the matter seem to mesh rather nicely.

I don't agree with your comment that non-complementary sub-types will create a contrary relationship. That should never happen within your own quadra. I don't feel that opposite strengths in subtype is conflicting, that seems to undermine the concept of semi-duality, for instance. Rather, I believe that you create a relationship somewhere between dualization and activation. While complementary subtypes (Si-Ne, Te-Fi, Ni-Se, Ti-Fe) create a sensation of true duality by balancing out strengths and weaknesses, non-complementary, but still dualizing sub-types (Si-Fi/Ti, Te-Ne/Se, Ni-Ti/Fi, Fe-Si/Ni, Se-Te/Fe, Ti-Ni/Si, Ne-Te/Fe, Fi-Ni/Si) will create the same functional relationship as an activity relationship, but with suited temperaments. I think that it will be harder for a sub-type to recognize their sub-type dual than a base type because the contrast is larger and they are more imbalanced in their functional use.

What I wonder, however, is how the difference between creative and base sub-types will affect the ability to recognize one's dual. Additionally, how temperament comes to play in different sub-types.

Here is why I think opposing subtypes who are technically "duals" will still pick up some characteristics of a contrary intertype relationship. First, let's use the ISTp-Si and ENFp-Fi model and give each person a subtype preference of 80% (just to quantify things).

The basic rule I use after for determining the strength of each information element or function is this: if the ability to use one function is augmented (e.g., if you have a strong subtype), then this has a negative impact on two things: (1) it suppresses the other side of the dichotomy; and (2) it suppresses the other function in the same block of Model A. So this is how using the above rule plays out in the strength of each function.

ISTp Si ..........ENFp-Fi

Ego Block ......Ego block
Si = 80.......... Ne = 20
Te = 20.......... Fi = 80

Super Ego .....Super Ego
Ni = 20 ..........Se = 80
Fe = 80 .........Ti = 20

Super Id ........Super Id
Ne = 20 ..........Si = 80
Fi = 80 ............Te = 20

Id ....................Id
Se = 80 ...........Ni = 20
Ti = 20 .............Fe = 80

So from the above breakdowns, you can see that, although the functions compliment each other, the strengths of the pairs are not complimentary. And if you look at the ISTp-Si strengths, he is strong at Si in the ego block and Fi in the super ego block--this makes him begin to resemble an ISFp, although he is still an ISTp, he exhibits some of the traits of an ISFp. On the other side, the ENFP-Fi has a strong Fi in his ego block and a strong Se in his super ego block, thus although he remains an ENFp, he begings to exhibit some ESFp traits.

A contrary relationship can be defined, for simplification, as matching up two people who differ only in the I/E dichotomy, and since the ENFp has begun to resemble an ESFp and the ISTp has begun to resemble an ISFp, ISFp-ESFp is a contrary relationship. The ISFp is strong in Si and the ESFp is strong in Se; The ISFp is also strong in Fe and the ESFp is strong in Fi; this is what the above numbers indicates as well. As such, it makes sense that the Strong Si-Se combination in the 2 mental blocks (the ego and super ego) combined with the Strong Fe-Fi combination in the 2 mental blocks will produce characteristics of a contrary relationship even though the relationship is still technically a dual relationship.

Now realize that since the Si-Se pairing and Fi-Fe pairing draw one function from the ego and the other function of the pair from the super ego, this will result in only some characteristics of the contrary relationship from manifesting (since the strong super ego function, although relatively strong withinin the super ego, is still second to the ego functions). Thus, the opposing subtype duality will result in some dual traits emerging and some contrary traits emerging, creating.. the potential for a fairly bumpy relationship.

So for you Dewy, if we say that you have a 75% Ti subtype, this gives you the following Model A: Ego block is Ne-25%, Ti 75%; Super Ego block is Se-75% Fi-25%; Super Id block is Si-75%, Fe-25%; and Id block is Ni-25%, Te-75%.

This means that since you have a fairly strong Se in your super ego block, it will give you a secondary erotic attitude of aggressor (I know you disagree with this). Using the above numbers, your erotic attitude breakdown will be 62.5% infantile and 37.5% aggressor.

Looking at your Super Id %s, it shows you are fairly strong in Si so you're not seeking too much more of it, but you're relativey weak in Fe so you are looking for someone with a lot of it.

thumperene 08/07/2008 01:40 PM

Dear Diary,
 
I think Ryan needs to get a life.

Yours always,
Thumperene.

RSV3 08/07/2008 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumperene (Post 13579)
I think Ryan needs to get a life.

Yours always,
Thumperene.

You are so random.

thumperene 08/07/2008 02:00 PM

...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13580)
You are so random.

but accurate.

Kanerou 08/07/2008 06:21 PM

*reads information and TILTs* I got through most of it, and finally.... :D

You know, I was just looking at that in class - the percentages of functions and such. And I saw what you put down. Must have been subconsciously there.

So.....question, then. In an ENFp-Fi, is his/her Se stronger than his/her Ne? And if so, how can that person still be ENFp?

Cyclops 08/07/2008 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanerou (Post 13587)
*reads information and TILTs* I got through most of it, and finally.... :D

You know, I was just looking at that in class - the percentages of functions and such. And I saw what you put down. Must have been subconsciously there.

So.....question, then. In an ENFp-Fi, is his/her Se stronger than his/her Ne? And if so, how can that person still be ENFp?

Sub types basically describe variations in a type. In an ENFp-Fi, an extra emphasis is placed on their Fi. More emphasis on Fi then less emphasis on Ne. In model A this means the F functions has more emphasis and T functions gets more emphasis. N functions gets less emphasis and S functions gets more emphasis.

So in a round about way you are wondering is if someones Ne became so suppressed that the Se became the most dominant function. I don't believe sub types can have that much effect. Some people believe that they can, that sub types represent a continuous spectrum of the types and therefore type changes (Smilexian socionics for instance.)

Theoretically it's possible but bottom line is no one knows for sure if sub type strength can change type. Personally I don't believe it's possible because your type is something which ultimately remains constant.

To me sub types are a way to represent variations in a type, as no one is totally similar.


As an analogy I mentioned earlier, think about the tropical rain forrest canopy. The trees at the top are the ones which see the light. It does not matter if the trees are 20 metres high or 30 metres high. They are still at top. They are highest and get the light and everything below them will never get the light to reach them, no matter how high that canopy is. That is like ENFp Ne and Fi functions, it does not matter how strong or how high they are, they are still ones that catch the sun and the S and T functions do not. Hence you will still be ENFp regardless of the height (or strength) of any sub type.

Well, personally I don't think type changes, sub types just explain variations but your Ne and Fi will always be stronger than Se and Ti. Their your natural dominant functions at end of day. But then maybe type can change through some practice. I don't think so but then I don't think anyone knows for sure :)

RSV3 12/07/2008 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanerou (Post 13587)
*reads information and TILTs* I got through most of it, and finally.... :D

You know, I was just looking at that in class - the percentages of functions and such. And I saw what you put down. Must have been subconsciously there.

So.....question, then. In an ENFp-Fi, is his/her Se stronger than his/her Ne? And if so, how can that person still be ENFp?

You can use subtype % calculations to determine the relative strength of all 8 functions, but the %s only indicate the strength of the function within that block of Model A only. As such, even though an ENFp-Fi might have an Ne of 20% and an Se of 80%, you can't compare these numbers because they are in different blocks of Model A (although once you get the % for one function, you can determine the other 7 %s).

So to answer your question, no, an ENFp-Fi will never have a stronger Se than Ne even though the Se % is larger than the Ne's because you can't compare %s interblock (only compare them intrablock).

kensi 12/08/2008 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSV3 (Post 13635)
You can use subtype % calculations to determine the relative strength of all 8 functions, but the %s only indicate the strength of the function within that block of Model A only. As such, even though an ENFp-Fi might have an Ne of 20% and an Se of 80%, you can't compare these numbers because they are in different blocks of Model A (although once you get the % for one function, you can determine the other 7 %s).

So to answer your question, no, an ENFp-Fi will never have a stronger Se than Ne even though the Se % is larger than the Ne's because you can't compare %s interblock (only compare them intrablock).

thats actually a good explanation....but what would be the reason for nature to play this trick on us?...for these functions to be disproportionately located like that...or in such an extreme as 80% Se and 20% Ne.

Cyclops 12/08/2008 10:17 AM

What do you think the percentages mean?

Vibration 05/10/2008 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 14106)
What do you think the percentages mean?

Time of expression of a specific function (observable to others)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanerou (Post 13587)
*reads information and TILTs* I got through most of it, and finally.... :D

You know, I was just looking at that in class - the percentages of functions and such. And I saw what you put down. Must have been subconsciously there.

So.....question, then. In an ENFp-Fi, is his/her Se stronger than his/her Ne? And if so, how can that person still be ENFp?

This is the most interesting thread in years!

I would like the order of the function to mean something real. Either the order symbolizes the unique wiring of the functions in a type's brain (at least virtually) and therefore the unique characteristics expressed by that type (observable by others), or that the order simply tells you how much a type uses its time to express the observable functions, or a combination of both... what a mess...


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