Socionics Forums

Socionics Forums (http://www.socionics.com/forums/index.php)
-   Ramble Mumble (http://www.socionics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Beta NF and Delta NF (http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1076)

Cyclops 26/09/2008 01:56 PM

Beta NF and Delta NF
 
Does anyone think Delta NF is more likely to be niave when giving the people, the benefit of the doubt, look for the best in their actions?

Whereas Beta NF is more likely to be niave when buying into ideas and ideology etc? They are more likely to be "true believers" in something such as this?

Or could this extend to all Beta/Delta?

Vibration 30/09/2008 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15035)
Does anyone think Delta NF is more likely to be niave when giving the people, the benefit of the doubt, look for the best in their actions?

Objectively, "Naive"would be the term describing the collective averaged judgement of a statistically significant amount of stochastically chosen 16 types subjected to the "benefit" of the doubt by Delta NF's.

Cyclops 30/09/2008 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vibration (Post 15117)
Objectively, "Naive"would be the term describing the collective averaged judgement of a statistically significant amount of stochastically chosen 16 types subjected to the "benefit" of the doubt by Delta NF's.

That's one way to try and find out. Other way is to observe the nature of Ti with Ni and Ne with Fi in historical and personal contexts, employing the nature of quadra movements in societal and leadership examples.

The theory and the examples coming together.

Or you could just give your personal experience or viewpoint on the matter. Maybe even some Ne might be cool.

Vibration 01/10/2008 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15118)
That's one way to try and find out. Other way is to observe the nature of Ti with Ni and Ne with Fi in historical and personal contexts, employing the nature of quadra movements in societal and leadership examples.

The theory and the examples coming together.

Or you could just give your personal experience or viewpoint on the matter. Maybe even some Ne might be cool.

I didn't mean the objective way is the only right way. I have started to appreciate the subjective way more and more. It's what we subjectively like that matters to us. Sometimes subjectivity and objectivity go hand in hand, sometimes not.

king 01/10/2008 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15035)
Does anyone think Delta NF is more likely to be niave when giving the people, the benefit of the doubt, look for the best in their actions?

Whereas Beta NF is more likely to be niave when buying into ideas and ideology etc? They are more likely to be "true believers" in something such as this?

Or could this extend to all Beta/Delta?

could you clarify what you mean by naive?

Vibration 01/10/2008 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15123)
could you clarify what you mean by naive?

Innocent open minded I guess?

king 03/10/2008 01:40 AM

I'm not sure
I have been typing some people I know (had some help from someone who's a bit more experenced) and there seems to be a trend although I'm not sure how consistent it is, or how relevent it is.

Beta

INFp - Seems to be quite trusting of people, but at the same time has a very paranoid streak (thinks people follow her on buses etc.). She is drawn to new beliefs and has expressed a desire to join a cult on a number of occasions (she's a strangeone, can't tell if she's being ironic or not, very enigmatic). more niave about ideas...maybe? She's too mysterious to really tell

INFp - Has been paranoid in the past (has had alot of irrational fears about people), not so much now, has alot of belief in humanity but also shows a healthy scepticism, is very interested in spiritual, philosophical and psychological matters (she's the one who's been helping me type people). Can tend to believe what people tell her, without making her own judgements. more niave about ideas


Delta

INFj- very trusting of people, very open and friendly, will talk and befriend anyone, doesn't understand it when people react badly to him, havn't a clue about his spirituality/beliefs etc. he doeasn't really talk about it, although he definately has them and is very interested in other peoples beliefs. more niave about people

INFj- Has mixed in bad circles, used to be pretty paranoid in his youth, I imagine due to people not reacting in the way he hoped. Has now developed a more sceptical attitude towards people (in a healthy way). Has his own personal beliefs which have always been quite consistent. more niave about people

INFj- Socially he has had the same friends from a young age, so it is hard to say whether he is niave. I would say that he always tries to see the best in people and I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone (I've known him for over twenty years). Has a deep personal spiritual philosophy, totally illogical but consistent with his values. probably not relevant, but he has also told me he thinks he's evil. He rarely dreams but the ones he does have tend to involve him being drawn to this evil and him having to drag himself away. He's told me that this is because he thinks people walk all over him. Interesting guy.
His ideologies are weird but consistent, I think he realises he's innocent with people but can't do anything about it, more niave about people...maybe?

ENFp- Idealist but sceptical, this guy I think has more time for people than ideologies. He's a psychologist and I think that working with all the messed up people he's lost any innocence he may of had, he's looking for a career change. Not niave

ENFp- assuming I am an ENFp, I suppose I'm a bit of a sucker in both respects, probably more with people, I tend to give benefit of the doubt, been scammed a couple of times (on the other hand I've managed to talk my way out of some very dicey situations by appealing to bad peoples better nature, so it swings both ways) NIAVE FOOOOOL!
I Feel the Pity of Mr T.

Vibration 05/10/2008 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15185)
INFp - Seems to be quite trusting of people, but at the same time has a very paranoid streak (thinks people follow her on buses etc.). She is drawn to new beliefs and has expressed a desire to join a cult on a number of occasions (she's a strangeone, can't tell if she's being ironic or not, very enigmatic). more niave about ideas...maybe? She's too mysterious to really tell

Sounds A LOT like INTj. Cult thing no though.




Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15185)
INFp - Has been paranoid in the past (has had alot of irrational fears about people), not so much now, has alot of belief in humanity but also shows a healthy scepticism, is very interested in spiritual, philosophical and psychological matters (she's the one who's been helping me type people). Can tend to believe what people tell her, without making her own judgements. more niave about ideas

N is paranoid.


Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15185)
INFj- very trusting of people, very open and friendly, will talk and befriend anyone, doesn't understand it when people react badly to him, havn't a clue about his spirituality/beliefs etc. he doeasn't really talk about it, although he definately has them and is very interested in other peoples beliefs. more niave about people good at fooling people.

Yes.

king 06/10/2008 02:08 AM

[quote=Vibration;15229]Sounds A LOT like INTj. Cult thing no though.[quote]

Definately INFp, has no interest in anything logical, likes trees, art and poetry. never makes plans, sometimes she will disapear for months without anyone hearing from her, totally spontaneous when she does do things, completely unpredictable.

Vibration 07/10/2008 07:41 PM

[quote=king;15230][quote=Vibration;15229]Sounds A LOT like INTj. Cult thing no though.
Quote:


Definately INFp, has no interest in anything logical, likes trees, art and poetry. never makes plans, sometimes she will disapear for months without anyone hearing from her, totally spontaneous when she does do things, completely unpredictable.
It was a joke. But INFp is definitely mysterious, INFj as well.

Cyclops 07/10/2008 07:49 PM

[quote=Vibration;15245][quote=king;15230]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vibration (Post 15229)
Sounds A LOT like INTj. Cult thing no though.

It was a joke. But INFp is definitely mysterious, INFj as well.

Apparently ISTp's also move in mysterious ways

Vibration 07/10/2008 09:53 PM

[quote=Cyclops;15246][quote=Vibration;15245]
Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15230)

Apparently ISTp's also move in mysterious ways

It's all so mystic.

king 07/10/2008 10:47 PM

[quote=Vibration;15247][quote=Cyclops;15246]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vibration (Post 15245)

It's all so mystic.

irony flies over ignorant heads

[quote=Vibration;15245][quote=king;15230]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vibration (Post 15229)
Sounds A LOT like INTj. Cult thing no though.

It was a joke. But INFp is definitely mysterious, INFj as well.

I meant to quote this one

king 17/10/2008 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15035)
Does anyone think Delta NF is more likely to be niave when giving the people, the benefit of the doubt, look for the best in their actions?

Whereas Beta NF is more likely to be niave when buying into ideas and ideology etc? They are more likely to be "true believers" in something such as this?

Or could this extend to all Beta/Delta?

I'm interested in why you asked this, could you explain your thoughts on the matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15246)
Apparently ISTp's also move in mysterious ways

Do you? in what way? I believe my first hand experiences of ISTP's are very limited, I have read the descriptions etc, however I would like to learn more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15246)
Apparently ISTp's also move in mysterious ways

unless this is further evidence of delta NF gullability.

Cyclops 17/10/2008 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15295)
I'm interested in why you asked this, could you explain your thoughts on the matter?

Was just curious. Most political movements or culture changes happen through an ideology. Ni tends to see where it goes and Ti tends to be ideologically based. Couple the Ni with Ti seeking it's easy to see them being receptive to an ideology and having a vision as to it's direction. Most figures or 'movements' in recent history have been Beta eg Hilter is the old favourite EIE to refer to.

Delta Ne see many possibilities, and they try to understand someone more through Fi, so more likely to give an individual the benefit of the doubt. As Te seeking is not ideologically based but objectively based they'd be more inclined to see the holes in buying into something on a bigger scale, but perhaps encourage the best in an individual.
Quote:

Do you? in what way? I believe my first hand experiences of ISTP's are very limited, I have read the descriptions etc, however I would like to learn more.
Well, I was punning the U2 song, but apparently some people see us as 'mysterious' in that still waters run deep or something so often the case it takes time for them to reveal more about themselves than the superficial. Not that they try to hide themselves on purpose, it's just their general way.

You've probably met more than you realise, but not as good at spotting them yet.

What descriptions have you read?
Quote:

unless this is further evidence of delta NF gullability.
Quite possibly.

Do you find yourself to be someone who is almost always be inquisitive? What sort of things do you like finding out?

king 17/10/2008 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15298)
Was just curious. Most political movements or culture changes happen through an ideology. Ni tends to see where it goes and Ti tends to be ideologically based. Couple the Ni with Ti seeking it's easy to see them being receptive to an ideology and having a vision as to it's direction. Most figures or 'movements' in recent history have been Beta eg Hilter is the old favourite EIE to refer to.

Delta Ne see many possibilities, and they try to understand someone more through Fi, so more likely to give an individual the benefit of the doubt. As Te seeking is not ideologically based but objectively based they'd be more inclined to see the holes in buying into something on a bigger scale, but perhaps encourage the best in an individual.

Is Ti ideologically based because it creates systems with knowledge, is the system the ideology? Did Hitler have any evil ISTj cohorts?
I used to work with this girl, reminded me a bit of Hitler, we really clashed, she was very self rightous about her values, smug as well in my opinion, good looking though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15298)
Well, I was punning the U2 song, but apparently some people see us as 'mysterious' in that still waters run deep or something so often the case it takes time for them to reveal more about themselves than the superficial. Not that they try to hide themselves on purpose, it's just their general way.

I had developed a very purposeful amnesia to that song....thanks...I now have the weeks of nightmares to look forward to and the grinning mug of bono burnt back into my minds eye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15298)
You've probably met more than you realise, but not as good at spotting them yet.

I reckon I'm getting fairly attuned to Si and Te, it's easier for me to identify ESTj's at the moment, less mysterious, I also seem to have a couple in my immediate social sphere. I know a couple of people who I suspect are ISTp's but not well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15298)
What descriptions have you read?

all the wikisocion ones
rocked through alot of the 16 types forums.

Reading about ideas doesn't really have that much relevence to me, unless I have some first hand knowledge, I also need to know how that idea relates to what I've experienced, or learned from someone who's opinion I value.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclops (Post 15298)
Quite possibly.

Do you find yourself to be someone who is almost always be inquisitive? What sort of things do you like finding out?

most things, not interested in sports or celebrities (much).
art...I know quite a bit about art
philosophy- was really into this for a while and got in too deep, dangerous murky confusing, Sartre broke my brain and I called it quits.
pop science-you know, easy to read stuff like Dawkins and new scientist articles, a few of my friends are scientists so I'll argue with them about things.
pop economics- read the economist, I like arguing with city boys
politics- once again not too deep, but will read and talk to people about it.
history- spend too much sleeping time reading, I like going to historical places, but also new places that are creating history.
psychology- read some jung a few years back, slowly getting hooked on this socionics malarky.
religion- I'm not religious but a lot of people are so I think it's important
current affairs- bunked off work to hang outside the lehman brothers building,
went to China to see whats going on there, Russia to see if it felt like there would be a new cold war etc., read broadsheets and tabloids, will watch news channels from a number of countries/angles
people- hopes, fears, motivations, lives, stories, I really like stories (I like socionics for this reason too)
everything, too many things,
*crap another rant...I could shorten this...it's quarter past eight...need to go...when did it get so late...stop typing you fool*

Kanerou 24/10/2008 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15299)
I used to work with this girl, reminded me a bit of Hitler, we really clashed, she was very self rightous about her values, smug as well in my opinion, good looking though.

I'm speaking out of a generalization here...sure she wasn't Fi-leading, though?

king 24/10/2008 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanerou (Post 15454)
I'm speaking out of a generalization here...sure she wasn't Fi-leading, though?

I don't know actually. I'm not so good with a lot of types still and it's hard to think from memory.
She didn't really remind me of Hitler, I think we just had a personality clash, probably not a type thing either. Although it may be, not sure...

She's definately EXFx of some sort. Very, very, outgoing. She's a burlesque singer or somesuch.
The clash was more apparant as we should have got on, very similar interests etc.
Also all my friends seemed to be totally in love with her and not realise that she was clearly evil. (again I don't think she was evil, I just had that feeling)

Kanerou 24/10/2008 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king (Post 15467)
I don't know actually. I'm not so good with a lot of types still and it's hard to think from memory.
She didn't really remind me of Hitler, I think we just had a personality clash, probably not a type thing either. Although it may be, not sure...

She's definately EXFx of some sort. Very, very, outgoing. She's a burlesque singer or somesuch.
The clash was more apparant as we should have got on, very similar interests etc.
Also all my friends seemed to be totally in love with her and not realise that she was clearly evil. (again I don't think she was evil, I just had that feeling)

Maybe she was ENFj?


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 SOCIONICS.COM