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| Question #1246496025 | Thursday, 2-Jul-2009 |
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| How does an ENTp supervisee get out of a relationship with an INFp supervisor? I cannot take anymore of it! ENTp man married to an INFp woman -- Anonymous |
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| A1 Do you mean INFj Supervisor? -- Anonymous |
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| A2 My bad. I meant INFJ wife. How do I correct that in the question? I am really asking for help. It has been 11 years of feeling policed and extremely restrained. It took me six years to get her to try and get her to find out about her type... that is how much my word does not matter. After finding out what her type was she uses to make me feel bad that, with the understanding of types that I have I should understand why she is supervising me. ALternatively she feels guilty (not often) especially when she realises that she is pushing me away, and tries to let me "have my way." All I want is to be appreciated for my strengths (she is good at seeing what I lack), perhaps even have my strengths literally used, but not to be mothered. This marriage is turning me into a teenage-like rebel (the kinda rebellion that hates patronising comments like 'oh my! you are so good... how can we perfect that/ find some use for that/ how interesting?' ... which makes it impossible to sense any personal growth) and I am not liking it and I really want out. Only it is difficult as a supervisee. -- Anonymous |
| A3 Yes. My mistake. -- Anonymous |
| A4 Hmm, have you talked to her about all this? maybe a counsellor count help to facilitate effective communication -- S |
| A5 There has been a lot of talking. We have been through counselling - only once - after I insisted on it. For some reason we (she?) keeps postponing further couselling. It just does not seem so high on her priority list. I had to threaten that, unless we call in a counsellor I am leaving. -- Anonymous |
| A6 Are you prepared to follow through on your statement to leave if she refuses counseling? -- Anonymous |
| A7 What you mention about her initial resistance to find out her type is coincidential with my experience with INFJ's. One of them, upon challenge for his resistance about typing was; He considered it as an artificial filter of some kind, that would reduce his abilities reading people on their true terms. I suspect he emphasized his subjective reference frame, (my theory), you know, the "I reject your reality and substitute my own" kind of thinking. Another one just put the guard up in a somewhat demeaning manner upon request. well, those are just two examples, what the examples patterned out for me, is that these individuals have a polarity towards me in matters that I consider just common sense. What may be the true platform they oppose on, I dont know. I hear what they say, but I catch undertones of something else than logical opposition. Since I have seen several INFJ's on this site, my experience with that group is certainly not universal. But try this: Supervising as you described, when I am seeing such behviour, I ask myself, what is the underlying theme behind demeaning attitudes and behaviour? Took me a while to realize this, I had to handle it the "scale way", as I use in almost anything I do. Two end points, one described by the most terrible programmed individual right up to the most pathological anti social and flawed selfesteemed person you can think imagine, and the other end point by the exact opposite, the altruistic `God` quality kind of person, the original idea of good and solid, as Platon would have said. OK, now the end points are rare, maybe nonexistant, but they serve to illustrate a concept. Now, most of us are on some point along this scale, moving around it, or from it in any direction as life goes on. That is dynamic, subordinate to experiences, resources for handling those experiences, and clinical states. But, let's just consider demeaning attitude, and whom, or more precisely, on which part of the midpoint such behaviour is most likely to occur. Now, I have a clear understanding that the more tranquil minded and good programmed you are as an individual, the less likely it is you'll resort to any action or attitude that inflicts on other peoples comfort the bad way. So to me, the telltale sign, or acid test in gauging peoples states of mind as conveyed, is to the extent they display discomforting, disturbing communication. And when I see it, I also try to see them as victims of some kind, that really needs considering along lines of emphaty and understanding. Man I tell you, sure takes efforts, but as an ENTp I am sure you are pretty biased towards selfdiscovery and self enhancement. And this is one ingredient in the process. But I have another one for you, a riddle; How is it possible that ENTp's with their urge for supremecy and competence, are so inclined to achieve other peoples appraisal for what they do and think? Such doesnt fit, when you consider it. I had to let one thing go, the the "other peoples appreciation" thingie. One of them have to go, they are working in exact opposite directions, with exact opposite outcomes. You can still live with people without having them appraise you. You know what you can do, that is supremecy as a standalone product. -- ENTp |
| A8 To A6, if I am an archetypical ENTp, do not ever challenge an ENTp on the prevails(sp?)of an official statement. At least not of this nature. BTW, I am not the topic starter. -- ENTp |
| A9 If she keeps ducking and diving or downright refusing? Yes, I am prepared to follow through. Perhaps someone here can still make me change my mind. I am still open to that. Just that this has been going on and on and on. I guess I just have to be adult enough to realize that there is a limit to how much I can take, swallow the bitter pill and move on. -- Anonymous |
| A10 It is hard to change ones minds due to external input, and I am in doubt whether that is the right thing to do anyway. But I will encourage you to really go deep inside and consider your resources in the matter, as a friend said; the amount of strain and stress percieved is in proportion to the state of mind. Yielding to them likewise. Consider buddhist monks living on the street vs rich people with serious personal problems. If your state of mind is low, nothing external will releive it in the long run. You have to take it from the inside. I have my own struggles so I will be the last to be told that this is easy to do. But I do know that this is the ultimate, if not only, way to go. -- ENTp |
A11 I moved on.  -- Anonymous |
A12 from the guy that started the whole thing: update; she has finally agreed to counseling. so, i am not leaving, at least not yet. thanks for your responses. on socionics and ethics (and i find the responses above to have a thing or two to do with ethics) - an INFj would want to knowingly or unknowingly insert her dominant function  into the vulnerable function of the ENTp. Unless there is something wrong with socionics, I, an ENTp, can never quite come out as the ethically superior (superiority being important to ENTps) or even at parity. The introverted ethical function is something I have been working with for a very long while. I do believe that the world i held together intelligibly; hence I can "go on playing in it." Where I fail TRUST is the name of the game. I can be in short spurts and then fall asleep. That is then the ground that the supervisor can use to keep her role. I can argue endlessly, even about how ethical I really am, but can never (seemingly) run away from my wife's dominant function. SO, I find it difficult to get to the state of the buddhist monk or to the altruistic point. My supervisor is always there to chop my grades down - with the final result "you are very interesting and intriguing, but not good enough." I just seem to always be her little ethically immature or feelings unaware husband - Leaving her would just prove the point. Staying will only lead to suffering it further. On seeking credit/appreciation: i have gone beyond that point by and large. i have learned that what i need is not much appreciation as I need good company... which at least understands that i need people around to feel alive. I am fine with people who are capable of saying "i don't get what you are going on about, but just carry on." I have also learned that this does not mean that the listener(s) are not necessarily admiting to idiocy; perhaps it is just me who is not managing to link it all up in a way that they can follow - which is a weakness that I have learned to live with (and I am working with). If there is any appreciation that I seek it is, "Wow, He is good at being himself!" I am happy for that, even when said sarcastically (and I always get when it is so said). To put it differently, I have long given up my need to be awarded a Nobel prize or similar. That was just a plain megalomaniac ( or similar) period in my life. I can live without such (hyper-)structural awards. -- Anonymous |
| A13 Life is a battle, a friend told me. Life is a game, I used to think. And yes, if it is ethics that is the core of it all, that sure is not our strong ground, at least not in enduring modes, that is how I see it anyway. It is more an intellectual, logical concept, right? You grasp the fundamentals, use them where appropriate, and then move on and do other things. Hard to do extended discussions there. If so, I can see the problems you are facing, better now. I will neither encourage you to leave or stay, but objectively, between the choices of "let her prove her point" by leaving and "suffering further" by staying, to boil it down, I see some interesting implications. If you leave, you have an impression of her winning something, if I have understood correctly. If that is the case, what kind of victory is that? What is the true merits of it? Does that necessarily objectively indicate something about you? It is her subjective impression that this is a victory, or affirmation of some kind. The loss associated is something you define. In my world such a scenario would probably lead me to a conviction of a system that failed to work properly, and failure is an option in this world, an eventuality that has nothing or little to do with pride. On the other hand, by staying, I tie that question up to resources for managing the related stress and strain it might bring. And there is a break point in any such situation, where the amount of burden outweighs the ability to recover from it. And that is an objective fact. Occational loss of pride is recoverable, either by memory fading, or logical reasoning, sustained grinding down is far more difficult and serious to handle well. Or in my world again, a system that is forced to run on on undesirable components and levels. Bad engine oil. Bad mutual understanding. Although, I have been white baffled some times seeing such systems not only keeps running, but recovering too. Love in equals love out, or something like that. Some just gotta hate this, I know. Good luck anyway. Hope you sort it out. -- ENTp |
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