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Question #1243778270Sunday, 31-May-2009
Category: j/p Theory Functions Models
Keirsey found a correlation between the 4 temperaments of his theory and groups of MBTI-types: So NT correlate with his "rationals", NF with his "idealists, SP with his "artisans" and SJ with his "guardians". Now I have a question because of the possible twist between introverted p and j types from Socionics and the P and J types from MBTI. While this twist doesn't change the fact that NT p or j remain "rationals" (Keirsey's meaning) and NF p or j remain "idealists" (Keirsey's meaning), which ones of ISFj, ISFp, ISTj and ISTp fit with Keirsey's "artisans" and Keirsey's "guardians"? -- piccolo_michel
Your Answers: 1+
A1 I would think that temperament relates more to personality than type; much of his data has to be anecdotal. Given identical environments, I would say there would be more of a temperament thread among Ej (dominators), Ep (experimenters), Ij (crafters) and Ip (sensors), using the Socionics notation. -- I/O
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A2 Yes, Socionics NFs could be the same as Keirsey's Idealists and NTs could be his Rationals, but Keirsey's descriptions are a bit limiting. For example, he describes Rationals as more willing to think than to work and not willing to make the first step in romantic relationships. Some Socionics NTs I know are actually more hard-working than hard-thinking and very much willing to pursue a woman. Also what he writes about Idealists seems to apply not so much to NFps as only to NFjs. With the Artisans and Guardians the correlation is even smaller, as you write, because there's generally no defined correlation between Keirsey and Socionics. From what I know about ISjs and Isps I'd say they both bear traits of Keirsey's Artisans and Guardians. Ijs are conservative in the sense they accept changes less easily than other types, and ISps have Te and Fe as their creative functions and some of them use it to sort things and people according to traditional and clearly definable measures. -- Anonymous
A3 Thanks for your answers. It's what I suspected. But in this case does a correlation exist between Socionics types and the 4 old temperaments sanguine, phlegmatic, choleric and melancholic or between Socionics types and Interactions-styles described by Linda Berens? -- piccolo_michel
A4 I never fully understood Berins' correlation with MBTI. I would have labeled EJs as "in-charge", EPs as "get-going", IPs (Ijs) as "Chart-the-Course" and IJs (Ips) as "behind-the-scenes". The latter two correlation areas seemed rather force-fitted, which may relate to the dominant-versus-extroverted-function difficulty of MBTI. -- I/O
A5 A3: My personal understanding is: Eps - choleric, Ejs - sanguine, Ij - phlegmatic, Ip - melancholic. That is according to the leading functions. But as we also use our secondary functions a lot and then we appear to be the complete opposite, Ijs - choleric, Ips - sanguine, Ejs - melancholic, Eps - phlegmatic. -- Ezis (ESFp)
A6 What? You have IP and IJ backwards. IP is phlegmatic, IJ is melancholic. EP is sanguine, EJ is choleric. -- Captain Obvious
A7 A6: Well the problem is that there are more theories about these temperament types, one from ancient Greece, the others developing it and sometimes changing it quite a bit. I divided the types according to a contemporary American theory my sister told me about, that says that melancholics and cholerics like to speak through actions more, and it is more comfortable for them to speak to people while doing something, and phlegmatics and sanguines speak directly to people and it is quite comfortable for them to just speak and do not do anything else, well maybe eat I saw this as a typical j-p difference. Especially for Sps with their leading S it is most natural to do something and speak just like "by the way", while working. Also, there is another theory we were told at school about, if I remember it right, the Greek one itself, claiming that cholerics have deep and short-lived emotions, melancholics have deep and long-lasting emotions, phlegmatics have less deep and long-lasting emotions, sanguines have less deep and short-lived emotions. (This, of course, doesnt regard love, anyone can love for 80 years.)Well I know for sure that I have deep and short-lived emotions while my Ip friends have deep and long-lasting emotions. But apart from these theories there is also this general understanding of the terms, and according to this, Ejs might very well be cholerics, as they can get quite irritable, and some Ips phlegmatic because of their stable Te or Fe creative functions, and IFjs might look like melancholics. -- Ezis (ESFp)
A8 A6. You did not considered the fact that j temperament mean approximately the same level of energy and p means more of an amplitude. This is why IJ are phlegmatic and IP are melancholic and so on. -- Anonymous
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