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Question #1192886791Saturday, 20-Oct-2007
Category: INTp
How do INTps experience grief? The kind that comes after the death of someone close, like a parent, spouse, child, or best friend? -- MD
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A1 i intp - not all those orders of magnitude i know. example wise, let me describe the following. lost my father. but with things like fore-thought, and knowing it was going to happen, and being analytic minded toward myself, and knowing the magnitudes of connection in physical realms, i did not feel the pains of 'missing' my father. i was however deeply affected in the 'life-planning strategic phase', as it was almost immediate, and my consciousness 'swapped' so to speak, and i continued to drive through in life areas over a period of months and years where i would not be in 'compromising interaction' with others. in that way, i felt asif my fathers and my own conscious merged in a way, for i would not continance disgrace on myself, which would not have stood in his social reaction senses (also, a good deal of anger came to be, as also in consciousness i felt i was pushing a familial standing, in model taking all the areas i knew to improve when my dad was still around, together with his expressed and non-expressed concerns). So it was good. continuity of life,,but an urgent and belligerent life message pushing through. A spouse, that would hurt, infact that would be the hardest grief, as all my power is directed toward that, and I could not countenance the STEALING. That would crush and make me beserk. A freind, they at best provisional, and provided for a small life period, as such, i would complete 'planning contigencies' left undone...besides, relations for an INTP are virtualized, i beleive this is the best way of grieving, as i DESPISE people who simply grieve physical longing (and the absence of social interaction) for me, these types, despite my shame at lack of 'observed grieving for the grieving period', lack facility to alter or change negative interactions while the person is still living. A child, i don't know. All types regard a child as intrinsic or an extention of their own being. So maybe grief of another variety, but serious dis-respect to the intp who could not dis-connect in there grief, as life and the extension of it, is based in planning phase. But by far, grief for a spouse would be the most distabilizing (but not in a 'oh..let the incident go...after all, i could not have forseen or planned'...for an intp feels well there ability to plan and control and be territorial over the life/spiritual/war planning sense). -- @sirac
A2 ditto. little affected by death, loss, etc. and seldom miss anyone. i go into the "moving on now" phase instantly after loss of any kind, continuing to fulfill contingency plans (that means plan B, then C, and D ... long string). i don't miss people ... ever; i see them as the sum of potential services rendered to me and i'd prefer keeping that close to zero. it's lone warrior mentality; i suspect that the only thing to shake it would be that i actually come to "love" someone while normally i don't care for people at all. - though i have to admit a difficulty (part of the reason i could never deal with an idealist); i can never say "u are the most [insert any compliment]" ... that's clearly false; it's hypocrisy a man saying to a woman "u are the most ex:[beautiful] woman alive" (as if he's seen every woman, or can't concieve of one more beautiful) followed shortly thereafter by "i wouldn't LIE to you" ... enough of this. in short, my justification would be that neither i, nor anyone close to me would benefit if i were phased at all by any loss ... the only disturbance would be strategic, and that if the loss came unexpectedly (fatal accident for ex). -- Anonymous
A3 Its hypocracy yes maybe, but people still like to hear it, its good to know someone cares. If the details of such a sentence bother you, a more appropriate way to say it would be 'in my eyes..' or 'for me' or 'I have never met..' Anyway this whole thread is all a bit too theoretical for me, I just know after some years of trial and error but still not getting it right that it feels scary but good to let yourself care. I hope this of use to you. -- ISTperson
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A4 what is "let yourself care"..but a moralistic socionic force. INTPs are seen basically as sub-human to the istPERSON. while there is ample space for interpretation per INTPmotor per person,..i think it is applicable to address to fellow INTPs the following:...we are human, perhaps more human, and we suffer for it...therefore learn the techniques which will prevent u from being circumvented...accept your humanity..with and in the face of the tools u are given. SO A3...i have said it...same as u...all i have done is remove the implications of 'foreign or extraneous' force to the INTP. perhaps...but that is my perspective on what my task or similar tasks should be. -- @sirac
A5 I don't want to get drawn into anything, I suspected my comment would coz that but I hoped not, maybe the best thing to do is not understand where above is coming from but not let on. Suffice it to say istperson's brother is intp whom is very close. ISTperson bears you no ill but gets involved trying to be pro active but with you is crap at it. istperson will do best to not say anything or at least spend a while longer considering any posts, all the best to you -- ISTperson
A6 WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!! You guys really aren't that affected by grief???? WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well of course you know what I'm gonna say. Deng that sucks for you guys that you dont' even let yourselves care about people and have really satisfying realtionships but then of course perhaps I'm missing out on whatever you guys have. BUT YEAH! THAT'S CRAZY. Bad but good at the same time. Uhm maybe you guys do experience grief but in your subconcious it's possible to not be aware of your feelings especially for thinking types. -- Anonymous
A7 A6 md and sirac come from spoiled and indulged backgrounds. Their endless rants and conceit to all other types and ideas esp sirac makes a mockery of the whole n concept. Until they really loose something that they don't realise is food nice mum and dad house etc then their self dev is limited to never even experiencing loss. Or perhaps a partner who because they want sex they will actually listen to someone .. Better to have had then lost than to never.. Have fun you bedroom heroes. -- Anonymous
A8 @A7: A mockery of the N concept? N = not feeling grief? I know that's not true. And to say that those people come from spoiled backgrounds goes to show that you don't know people in general. Nobody lives a perfect life, NOBODY. Everybody in the world experiences pain and loss and grief to some extent except apparently from this discussion some people aren't quite as affected by grief. -- Anonymous
A9 These guys don't. They don't take anything on board unless its from an intp - sirac himself has said this - so they're minds are closed as much as the stereotypical istj-this is n mockery reference. I know people very well. For their sort the best way for them to experience loss is to take away their pc's. And besides i'm sure they can speak up for themselves they haven't held back before perhaps you should give them that opportunity first. -- Anonymous
A10 haha, A9 nearly hit the mark. it's not that we don't experience loss so much as we "cut off dead flesh" quickly ... realizing always well in advance that nothing will be made better by clinging to a lost cause. 100% chance of death ... oh right, past tense .... event = gone ... so what's NEXT? - for the many F-types out there who think it's cruel and that INTps are "inhumane" - what would be better for a family? - even in the case of losing a spouse (which would REALLY hurt btw, as sirac said before, more than anything else): i'd have to choose between (ONE)** hysterical crying, wasting time pandering to sycophantic relatives, compromising familial financial stability in the fam., potentially imparting emotional "trauma" to offspring (and this last one would be a real whammy looking at the possible ramifications - psychiatric bills, toll of psychiatric counselling on the childrens' self-image esp. depending on age, etc.) ... or (TWO)** owning up to the situation at hand and making the next move calmly and correctly, thereby minimizing aftershock damage. how many "concerned" relatives don't think before calling to voice their "concern" for me when i'm sick without thinking that answering phone calls is not conducive to healing fevers? ... and lecturing me while i can hear things like "u've fulflled the obligation already honey" at the other end of the line? - INTps really don't care for MANY people but we care MUCH and competently for our favorite few. part of the reason we seldom "TEACH" (or repeat or explain ourselves) is that the staunchly philosophical bids us MOVE ON ... we realize that to stop and preach is to momentarily violate the rule "practice what you preach" and confines us to verbal rules which are too artificial to coincide with the cause and effect rules already invested in the natural and are NOT TO BE CONTRADICTED ... while at best, EXPLOITED. a well developed INTp will not accept a double standard here, knowing well that THE LAWS do not compromise. as for emotional lacking, truth be told ... i don't miss and/or think about people who are not present unless it's to anticipate how their moves will affect my plans at some future point in time; as to grief in particular: it's very diffuse what i feel when someone else in my situation would be expected to "grieve" -- Anonymous
A11 I'm sorry you feel that way about us, dude. My father recently died, that's why I asked this question. I did not feel the way the way most people would. I shed what tears I had, not for his passing but for things unreconciled, and then I moved on, the same as I have always been and yet stronger, for he was a strong man and as his firstborn I must now take on the strength that was his in life... If you believe me to be cold for this, then that is understandable, for we INTps see our emotions as simply another piece in the puzzle, one part of a whole, and therefore we must maintain distance, in order that all the parts together are taken into account. We know, because IN is intuition of time, that one death is simply one small event in the cosmic mosaic of time, and we will move on whatever the case, so for us... Time is ruthless, and unfeeling. We must move on, or linger to what end? To move on later. If you believe we truly do not care, I cannot change your thinking... But I will say that in one corner of my room is propped my father's fighting stick. It is his favorite, from his homeland, and often I will look over at it, or hold it in my hand and think of him. -- MD (INTp)
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