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Question #1175990869Sunday, 8-Apr-2007
Category: ESTj INFj Duality Theory
How do ESTjs handle their relationships? What are the stages that ESTj + INFj go through in order to dualize? Any do's/don't's? Helpful hints? Please don't say, "go with the flow" because as you get older, you learn a bunch of "garbage" and deny your natural instincts such that "just let things happen naturally" doesn't work anymore. I never "dualized" before. But I have semi-dualized (if I can say that) with ENTjs - it is much easier for me to connect with them now, after having various friendships (which WERE rough at first). That knowledge is not helping with ESTjs, however. -- blahblahblah
Your Answers: 1+ 11+
A1 Well, to answer the first sentence, maybe ESTjs handle their relationships in a "businesslike" manner? If you are indeed an INFj (I am not 100% sure based on what you wrote), it sounds like the problem you are running into is connecting with ESTjs on a "feeling" level, which I believe is their weakest function. Obviously you can't paint everyone with the same brush, but I've found that I have frustrations dealing with ESFjs (as an INTj). Perhaps it's because as I suggested in an earlier reply to another post that we tend to gravitate towards people like ourselves? -- econdude
A2 Thanks for your input, econdude. I have only formed one relationship with a dual - a longtime friend who tests ESTj. Our potential for romance came and went, and we were always out of sync with our timing/who was interested and ready/when. But his desire was never intense anyway, as with his other interests. We've known each other for nearly a decade now. Wasn't meant to be. He was a clear ESTj to me from the start, ie, in the qualities he demonstrated which I found intriguing - but I was decidedly not accepting my own INFjness through most of my life, and so not confidently projected those qualities, but curbing and hiding them (social conditioning). And it took YEARS for our FRIENDship to really even form, despite my early interest - yet, it has been sustained even though being long distance. I can go to him like no one else I've known. I've seen him in love, multiple times - and must say, he is NOT businesslike, he's very romantic and somewhat mad, even, in the things he'll give up and is willing to do to pursue the one of his affection. Of course, were I to ask him - what initiated his desire? - he has no clue. "It's simple. It just happens when it's right - it just happens." So, I've come to the conclusion that I don't project my ego functions strongly enough and worked too hard developing other ones I shouldn't worry about so much (e.g., S and T ones). This has seriously impeded my happiness both professionally and socially. So I want to know what it looks like to project my ego functions more confidently so that more of my duals will take notice, etc., and so I get more productive in my contributions to society (my longtime desire). I only recently, FINALLY confirmed my type. The socionics.us site mentioned giving interpretations on people's relations and society - different perspectives. This is all well and good, and I do this, but it seems esoteric and I don't believe many people are seeking this on a daily, casual basis THROUGHout the day. Usually I've been invalidated when I do this - well, I guess, except from a select FEW (my two ESTj and ENTj friends). When an INFj uses her dominant and creative functions in even a simpler way, say, initial meeting, what does it look like? Apart from the "please" and "thank you"'s - that's nice and all, but doesn't go very far either. As for standing up for my own beliefs and sense of integrity, I am usually shunned by those around me who see my values as being too .. ermm ... "lofty" - or too intense/unrealistic (tho` I disagree; if anything, I compromise too much). So what do healthy, well-developed, attractive INFjs look like to other people? I'm open to hearing people's stories on ESTj-INFj-isms, and sample positive expressions of and . Also, how much can producing art satisfy these functions - and how much does that compare/contrast with INFps? Thank you very much in advance for your responses. -- blahblahblah
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A3 Well, probably I don't have anything to add. I just sense that you want something more out of a relationship than day-to-day and moment-to-moment "business." With all due respect, an ESTj can tap some intuitive functions but probably not enough to satisfy an INFj, at least romantically. Many other factors go into marriage, if that is the ultimate goal, so a dual relationship could work quite well if the partners have similar interests and goals. -- econdude
A4 I wish I could help and answer those question for A2 post and the original question, but I'm also INFj sadly looking for answers to similar questions. -- what else
A5 Response to A4 - that is an interesting reply! I think many readers would be interested to know why you and presumably b-cubed feel that way. I had a female manager, ESFj, my dual, who started out nice and gradually acted totally insane by the time I left the company. Our philosophies and work styles differed so much that being duals was a tremendous hindrance to a synergistic relationship. So, are you unhappy about not being able to latch on to a dual, or are you unable to create what you feel is a productive "dual" relationship, be it professional or personal? -- econdude
A6 I am an ESTJ who has been married to an ENTP for 19 years - it's been crazy but really good for us both and we have a lot of fun together (when we're not arguing that is!). Realising our type difference after already 10 years of marriage and three kids was really good as it stopped me (typically) thinking he was just insane and in need of re-educating (by me, of course!) and started me on the process of actually listening to him with some respect and starting to understand him. This has both saved our relationship and also helped develop me personally much more than I would have done if I'd married another 'S' person like myself. The 'S' 'N' difference between two people is undoubtedly hard to work out - particularly I think regarding ESTJ's as we are so sure we are right - but nevertheless very much worth it for both parties. I would encourage you 'N's out there who are struggling with your extremely frustrating ESTJ partner, to get them to do the test and to read up on it all a bit, and so to start realising (hopefully) like I did, that 'N's AREN'T just talking nonsense all the time (as they may seem to be) but are actually seeing a lot further ahead than we are - it's just that they can't EXPLAIN it as well as we can. And something you N's can do for us ESTJ types is to remember to show appreciation to us for all the practical and usually extremely pertinent help we give you, as appreciation REALLY opens up our soppy side and makes us much more inclined to make the effort to open up to your perspective. I hope that helps some of you. -- Anonymous
A7 I take you're the INFj, and by other responses, female, so I'll answer accordingly. I'm a male INFj and I've successfully took the first steps in dualizing a relationship before. I ended up not persuing the relationship - probably because I didn't know how perfect the duality opportunity in front of me was - but I do know for a fact that the she sought one from me (news from a mutual friend), so I'll just call that one successful. Anyways, since you also asked what INFj females look like to others I'll answer that first. Quiet people come in two flavors - shy (socially afriad) and reserved (socially confident). INFj females always come across as the latter type. The type of person whose quiet confidence can make approaching intimidating, but whose natural kindness always makes friendship rewarding. I would imagine an attractive, well developed INFj male looks similarly, but I can't say for sure. I can't look in from the outside into my own attractive, well developed self. Onto the main question: ESTjs appear largely unemotional. Read: APPEAR. They have their own share of emotional troubles that weigh deeply on their minds. If you can identify these troubles and appeal to their J with a good bit of quality NFing - a perspective they respect and recognize, but need a bit of help seeing - they'll instantly earn your trust and respect. But be careful - they're interested in SOLVING the problem, not feeling better about it. So don't give your advice exactly the same as you'd give it to your INFp friend, but rather to someone who you know will take charge on your words of advice. Helping an ESTj work out the tough bits in their life from a totally new and fresh perspective will make them re-evaluate you as a person in a very positive light. This is answering the question from the perspective of someone who isn't already closely familiar with the ESTj in question. Meaning, worrying about the timing of both parties isn't part of the equation. If you're already very familiar with this man, then it may not be a question of whether or not you need to get him dualized and ready to enter a close emotional relationship with him. It's whether or not the attraction is there for the two of you at the right time. Dualized relationships require some mutual attraction to make things work and for two people who are already familiar with each other, that light may have dimmed. Maybe, at this exact moment, he's just comfortable with being friends. So to put his back on, it's back to old fashioned tricks that don't deal with Socionics at all. Maybe play the jealousy card a little, suggest competition, and throw a little flirting and unpredictability in your actions in the mix. Of course, do this in a "hard to get" way! The more expensive the prize looks, the more it's worth and the more somone's gonna want it. And don't take that last suggestion as underhanded. Because really, I think it this guy just needs to me reminded why he really needs you. It sounds like he's forgotten. -- Nada (INFj)
A8 One of my best friends is an ESTj and I must say that she does handle her relationships very "business-like." She doesn't really like to mess around with the whole chase. But still, she's pretty happy when she's in a relationship. -- Anonymous
A9 I'm an ENTJ and all I think about is the perfect marriage. The answer to A2 is he probably doesn't see you like that anymore. Probably because over the years he has lost interest. He is probably waiting for intense passion. He is drawn to everybody, but if someone is showing interest he is likely to give you an answer. Don't let him toss you aside; then you will make it past that hurdle. At leat I hope; that's me anyway. -- ENTJ Guy
A10 I had an ESTj friend who gave one guy a survey before she would agree to go out with him. -- Anonymous
*Please note that the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of socionics.com*
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