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Question #1171095166Saturday, 10-Feb-2007
Category: Duality ESTp INFp ESTj INFj
Why are ESTps and INFps duals? Do ESTps treat INFps in a way they do not others? As far as negative traits go, many ESTps have a bad rap for over-materialism and exploitation. So an INFp enters the scene and ... what happens? Do ESTps actually soften? Feel protective of the INFp? Possibly reveal their tender side they don't show others? Do they suddenly give more than take? What happens? Also, why might INFjs find themselves happiest with ESTjs, as the theory goes? ESTjs - sweet as some can be - can become so terribly boring (sorry, ESTjs!), it's hard to believe INFjs wouldn't tire of an ESTj partner in a profoundly stifling way. Do they? Or do INFps experiences that? Perhaps INFjs can appreciate the security and normalness ESTj provides, but then it can get to be too much, too stagnant and stifling. What are the typical "pitfalls" of duality? And how do you know you've met your dual? -- blahblahblah
Your Answers: 1+ 7+ 11+ 15+ 22+ 33+ 43+ 50+ 62+
A50 Wow, that's a big jump you took, connecting my observations about INFjs to me being angry with my mom and friend? Actually, I'm quite fond of them, even though they irritate sometimes. Ayway, the desc. is true that I do blow things out of proportion and it may irritate an ESTj (mom has told me I'm weak) or an INFj, although both have helped me gain perspective in those times. That isn't being untruthful; at those particular times, I believe things are as horrible as I say. And the other desc. is probably also true: INFj probably is mostly modest, doubts himself like INFp sometimes, but definitely brags a bit. Anyway, it does annoy me that someone (a.j.) is so certain and narrow in defining herself as "gifted." There is insecurity in that and it's annoying that the person doesn't consider why she feels the need to fit herself into some idealized persona. It does seem untruthful to me and it bothers me; seeing people be ashamed of who they really are really bothers me, which is really a personal problem, no one's but mine. -- learning
A51 A47.. You can come on strong about things..and I thought that was just me ! -- Cyclops
A52 learning, I agree, bragging is often seen in people who are not sure of themselves. I date an ESTp, trust me, I see it all the time.I believe you misunderstood my comment about my seeing new things everyday (that were there yesterday) as my saying I was gifted. It is not what I was trying to say. In honesty, I believe not seeing things right in front of me is a huge flaw. But I take that flaw and find the positive in it. I didn't say I was gifted-it's not about me, it's about the fact that actually seeing the tree today is a gift. The tree is beautiful, and every day that I miss something, I know in my mind I will probably get to see something new & beautiful tomorrow. I see others downgrade themselves all the time. Many of these people seem to navigate toward me for advise. I see their shame. I want them to take that shame or emabarassment or whatever, and confront it-find the positive in it. I learned from my own flaws that you can not hide from yourselve forever-people used to laugh at me when I'd point out things that were obviously there yesterday-call me a spacey airhead. But I take it with grace now, and just smile because I am enjoying the gift(of the object itself) right now in this moment, cause I think others often "see" the objects, but don't take the time to really see them for what they are. Also, I didn't think I was trying to fit into an "idealized persona" Being new to Socionics, I was soaking in all the opinions from others-who often said I was INFp. I was usually sticking firm to my being INFj-but had doubt because of my newness to the sight. Possibly you are right about my trying to be my mate's dual. I talked to a pyhscially abused woman the other day, she was showing me the current cuts on her mouth-out of that same mouth came the words "I love him so much". There are some strong unhealthy personalities out there, strong enough to manipulate a person into who they want them to be-and weak enough to be manipulated. I have had contact with a lot of ESTp's, and this seems to be a big trait with them. Knowing yourself, you can save yourself in the end. Cyclops said you could come on strong about things-coming on strong is ok-but yes, truth is one big word-and actually an even bigger gift. -- aj
A53 A50, your mom has told you your weak, but she just "irritates you sometimes" it's no big deal right? Your mom dissing you isn't a problem, nah. Yep, I made a gigantic leap, I reacted with . I would still guess I'm right. Also, is it more a sign of insecurity to off-handedly say you're gifted, like aj did, or to be so upset by it you go on a mini-tirade against her supposed type? aj, there's something I really want you to do. Go here: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Romance_styles and compare your relationship with your boyfriend to the styles listed. Your's should be infantile as INFj, do you find that to be the case? If so, your ESTp, Aggressor, boyfriend should find it extremely annoying. Getting back to the original question, INFp and ESTp match because the INFp (Victim,Romantic) wants to be conquered and the ESTp (Aggressor,Conqueror) wants to conquer (Seduce, Romanticize)! INFj (Infantile,Empath) wants to be taken care of or directed, and ESTj (Caregiver,Director) wants to take care of someone. -- Azure
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A54 Actually, INFp resists being conquered, but feels she has no choice. Anyway, I'm sorry, but you are too closed to hearing me and insistent on being right, so I will not say much. I will say that my mom has called me weak because she wants me to be stronger. I love that, and maybe it's because she is an older ESTj, but she can see where I am strong as well and so can my INFj friend. I love them both dearly. I can understand you misunderstanding that part of my post. My writing was unclear. -- learning
A55 Self correction: I should've written "stronger emotionally;" my mom wants me to be stronger emotionally, not take things so hard. -- learning
A56 To learning and aj: Duuuuudees, lighten up. Stop taking yourselves so seriously. You'll feel better for it. Promise. you will. Btw, aj, you talk like an INFp - head in the clouds, heavy subscription to non-empirical belief systems, adamantly sticking to your belief that your an INFj despite the objective signs pointing in another direction. And to learning - like so many INFp's you seem to expect and assume that ppl will understand you, without making a substantial enough effort to explain the rationale behind your views. And when ppl fail to understand you, you get all upset. Do yourself and others a big favour and EXPLAIN your views more thoroughly! INFp's often have insights worth voicing, but seem to get lazy and inpatient when it comes to explaining their views. and let's face it, INFj's are pretty modest, and even when they do brag, it's often in a sarcastic, self-mocking way. and they pretty much never seek out compliments. they also have a hard time accepting them (they'll try and find some way to dismiss the compliment off-handedly) to Azure - personally, i find that rhetorical questions don't work well with INFp's when you're trying to convey a point to them. They can end up taking it too personally, get offended, and give you the 'nevermind, you just don't understand me' response (they're very sensitive ppl). But I find they do respond more actively to directness/frankness (sometimes negatively, sometimes positively, which are both better than the 'nevermind!' withdrawal response) -- Shez
A57 Hi -aj-, your written experience truly resonates with me as I have just enteres a fresh relationship with an ESTP, myself being an INFJ. We are aware of our polar-opposite differences; I am sometimes too quiet and serious and he can be manipulative (lol - it's true). And we will tell this to each other, with smiles on too, as you described. He is very concerned with 'image management' and with presenting himself to others in a positive and successful manner. He sees the world in possibilities and probabilities and is curious to see which ones he can explore to his advantage. He looks to me for deeper understanding of the 'human condition' that he feels is centered in art and literature (my univ. majors, incidentally). He has an entrepreneurial spirit and boundless 'energy'. He states that at times, he can see that my mind is racing with thoughts or doubts that I am not verbalizing, and it makes him insecure - it makes me insecure to know that he is fearing my thoughts because that is all that they are sometimes, and I tell him that if something is really wrong, I will say so. Otherwise, I enjoy his company and his personality and I agree with his family-focused values and future goals. I want a home and a family and I want someone 'strong' to do that with, regardless of whether or not we might have a few bumps along the way due to our perfectly complementary pairing. I think it is still worth it because he really does make me get in touch with the infj side of myself and makes me look towards my own possibilities. -- 1whitehorse1
A58 umm do some people here realize that MBTI INFJ and socionics INFj are two completely different types? i feel like some people are mixing up the two. -- Anonymous
A59 I agree, those claiming to be INFj's and expressing having wonderful and exciting relationships with ESTp's are probably mistyping themselves. One of my parents was an ESTp, and there was NEVER at any time anything wonderful or exciting about our relationship. The parent was cruel, cruel to all of us, but I being an INFj handled it the worst, I suppose. I've had the chance to witness two INFp's interact with the parent, and there's nobody in the world it seems, that can change an ESTp for the better than an INFp, at least in my observation. Suddenly, the ESTp sits up a little taller, a litter straighter. The INFp knows what to say, what to do, to make the ESTp appear more refined. The ESTp doesn't make as many crude jokes, doesn't offended as many people. I wouldn't say the ESTp becomes any kinder, but definitely more gentle. So kudos to you INFp's for that ability. -- anon
A60 ESTP and INFP are duals because INFPS's Ni balance ESTP'S Se and vice versa. ESTP will keep an INFP going and an INFP will calm an ESTP down. I am an ESTP and my best friend is an INFP guy; I admire him because he would think in the least possible way i could think of. His randomness and acceptance, not being judgemental over my reckless behaviour makes it comfortable and easier to actually open up myself emotionally. -- ESTP
A61 as an INFp, i can say that a lot of Se dominant types are very calm around me. my ESFp friend is a certified crazy person but when he's around me, he's actually sits and listens. -- Anonymous
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