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Question #1171095166Saturday, 10-Feb-2007
Category: Duality ESTp INFp ESTj INFj
Why are ESTps and INFps duals? Do ESTps treat INFps in a way they do not others? As far as negative traits go, many ESTps have a bad rap for over-materialism and exploitation. So an INFp enters the scene and ... what happens? Do ESTps actually soften? Feel protective of the INFp? Possibly reveal their tender side they don't show others? Do they suddenly give more than take? What happens? Also, why might INFjs find themselves happiest with ESTjs, as the theory goes? ESTjs - sweet as some can be - can become so terribly boring (sorry, ESTjs!), it's hard to believe INFjs wouldn't tire of an ESTj partner in a profoundly stifling way. Do they? Or do INFps experiences that? Perhaps INFjs can appreciate the security and normalness ESTj provides, but then it can get to be too much, too stagnant and stifling. What are the typical "pitfalls" of duality? And how do you know you've met your dual? -- blahblahblah
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A15 Aj, I still said ENTp was possible simply because your ongoing descriptions were still on track for ENTps I've known well. The two types do have many functions aligned. That is why I asked more differentiating questions and so, you've validated even further that he is indeed ESTp. Thank you. Regarding MBTI and Keirsey, you may be aware that these systems define the cognitive functions somewhat differently than socionics does - and, the difference gets really large with the introverted types. E.g., MBTI INFJs are dominant Ni, then Fe = socionics INFp. I don't believe the systems have been focused enough in the profiles and testing methods to catch all of the subtleties true to life which can make typing complex - but among them all, socionics appears to be the most on track. I take it all in with varying measures of salt, and test it (which means partial acceptance for a time, before truly accepting it!) /// Yes, I agree that concepts of energy and magnetic attraction are very helpful metaphors in considering relationships! With type, we've got, hmm, almost "two different kinds" of opposites. That is, consider one kind - your dual - as being "perpendicular" to your efforts. There is mutual support, energy, productivity in unison - the energy is orthogonal, complementary, different but at right angles in supporting directions, like a paddlewheel - e.g., INFj = (Fi, Ne) and ESTj = (Te, Si). See the harmony of alignment with these polarities - called "support". But then there is another kind of "opposite" - the conflicting partner - e.g., INFj - (Fi, Ne) and ESTp = (Se, Ti). Yikes! That's as contrary as it can get. Socionics calls it "inhibition" (e.g., /// Could you compare disagreements with your ESTj ex versus your ESTp now? Which "gets" to you more? // On a different track, much earlier I asserted how "ESTjs can be so boring." If I actually AM a rather inhibited(!) ENFp (not INFj or whatever), then ESTj is my activity partner. I generally find ESTjs very attractive upon first meeting. They have such a "soothing," "flowing" quality to their disposition which strikes me as very serene, docile and tranquil. So this attracts me. ESTj + ENFp = activity. So in this case, what "excites" me would actually be ESTj's laid-backness! (See how these definitions can morph in specific cases?!?) And of course, activity partners per the description can "tire" of each other over time, which then makes sense why an ENFp would find ESTjs too boring after a while. /// And lastly, regarding @A14, that was an interesting assertion. I'm not convinced that conflicting types actually look down on each other per se, nor CONSCIOUSLY undermine each other. Hmm. I do know one longtime couple - he is a TEXTbook narcissist (no gray areas here), she clearly feeds his so-called "supply" ... but I believe they belong to the same quadra (and may even be duals). /// Has this Q&A set a new record yet for length?? -- blahblahblah
A16 @A15. That was just about narcisstic relationships. Normally the negative aspects of the conflicting pair probably are more evident than other aspects of that person. But not in the same sense as above. -- Anonymous
A17 blahblahblah, I enjoy your "mathmatical" explanation of type. I often look at life as a series of mathmatical equations. I won a math scholarship upon graduating from high school, but did not accept it. I decided at that time to pursue my first passion-raising a family. I met my ESTj husband who supported my passion. He believing, like I did/and still do, being a stay at home mom is the most important career out there. Through my years of staying at home with the children, he supported my creativity in this pursuit. I designed and sewed clothing for the family, had a flair for decorating on a dime, entertained with style (cheaply), cooked and baked creatively. I gave all my kids holiday parties at school-trying my best to make all children feel noticed. I tutored some students in math. I never wanted extravagant material items-being happy with the wealth of loving and nuturing children as they grew. My creativity was used to save us money to do this-and my ESTj husband was proud of my ability to do these things-which allowed it(my creativity) to grow. He would do extra work if needed, he enjoyed working. We had common goals, morals, ideas-it was quite easy with him. Arguments were super rare. He became my ex because of the demon of alcohol. It was a difficult choice to leave him, he was quite responsible despite his problem, however as the children got older-I wanted to pursue my next passion-going to college. He had a tough time with my not being home, I started to feel somewhat controlled. I had been so free to be me-and now I wanted to grow to the next level, and it bothered him. In dating my ESTp bf, the biggest difference I see is how he affects my creativity. With the ESTj, my it flowed naturally, was easy-but was behind the scene-just for us. My ESTp bf challenges me to put my creativity "out there". To start a business, sell a product, sell an idea, whatever-but to have the confidence to share it with society-for a price. Whereas, with the ESTj, I shared my creativity for the sheer love of others. I kind of like the combination of the two. Whatever I do in the next phase of my life, it will probably be more "out there" due to my experiences with the ESTp-yet it will still be with humility and for the good of others. I better stop now-(we could break that record for length yet)...Hopefully I have answered some of your questions, your interactions have been great. And to A.14-yes, I felt that my ESTp bf could have lied on the test. However, he does possess all the qualities of his type. I feel that he is on the pathological side of the ESTp-already predisposed to narcissism because of the self confidence of ESTp. He more than likely presents a false self, but I feel that when I'm around most self confident people. They always seem to be hiding something...some hurt, some pain, something-I can often "feel" it being an empath..Many of them don't seem "real" to me in their presentaion to the world. -- aj
A18 Hi aj, thank you for all your input. This has been a very insightful "thread"! We have a lot in common. I am sorry to hear about the demise of your marriage. That is good how you listened to that push from your secondary function to expand your horizons and grow more. Otherwise, if you remained stagnant, who knows what kind of misery you'd be experiencing now. (You know how many people resist growth, and then back-end functions can derail in ineffective ways and bind them.) By the way, I VI 100% like Mischa Barton (new INFj addition), but continue to examine the possibility of my creative subtype function having enough impact so as to rearrange my intertype relations such that ENFp's types may be more valid. Aj, have you ever had a "vacation place" in your mind, a consistent mental image you would escape to for solace, regeneration, inspiration and refreshment, pretty consistent for most of your life? If so, can you describe the scene? Mine just so happens to be an iceberg in the ocean ... for at least the last 15 years. Hmm. Now that just happens to be the standard ISTp description. Interesting, eh?! I find it uncanny. -- blahblahblah
A19 I feel like I'm currently on an iceberg! Been stranded in the country (along a river) for the past 4 days-BLIZZARD!!! My recurring "vacation place" since I was a child, is that of me standing upon a green mountain top. I close my eyes often and imagine this. My hair is flowing in the wind. I'm barefoot and wearing a long flowing dress. The grass is soft on my feet. I am alone with nature-and I love the aloneness of Self. I also have a recurring dream. In my dreams my place to go is into an attic of an old house. I sit by a window and write. Outside the window it is beautiful-lots of trees-green. Not bothered by the outside stimulation of people. I dream of coming out of the attic totally refreshed-with a book for others to read about my insights into this place called "life". BTW, I have a friend who VIs like Calista Flockhart-she too is an INFj. We have awesome conversations that only we "get".. -- aj
A20 Is this "vacation place" some INFj-thing, or do you think everyone has one? Personally I hate relaxing, most people don't understand this. I might sit still and think. But then I'm "processing" and that's not relaxing at all. -- INTp
A21 About A20 - I would think more people than not have at least one "vacation image" they retreat to. It would be interesting to survey these and look for common psychoanalytic themes - how often they reflect the qualities of one's dual. Aj, I've been reassessing those whom I considered to be ESTjs in the past (never had them take a test). I am suspecting that I have been mistaken about who I've been calling ESTj! (There are some types I can easily detect, but others I am still learning.) Your first vacation place sounds like a scene right out of the Sound of Music, heh! Do you think Julie Andrews is an INFj in that movie? And what of the Captain? Anyway, I too had a recurring dream, during early adolescence, but mine wasn't pleasant like yours: it was the end of the world, and most everyone around me was asleep and unaware but me - like most everyone was sleepwalking. Your recurring dream sounds like a nice ESTj-ish construct to be INFj-ish in. Out of curiosity, how did you and your ESTj ex meet? Did your relationship develop very slowly, with him always taking the lead? -- blahblahblah
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