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Question #1129055006Tuesday, 11-Oct-2005
Category: INTj Intertype Relations Duality ESFj
My father is an ESFj and I am an INTj. I do not understand how an INTj and an ESFj are supposed to get along. I understand that an ESFj is suppose to be my dual, and I understand theres probably a difference from males to females, but I don't see how I could end up with ESFj wife. All he does is clean and make sure everything is neat and perfect and me and him are always arguing because I tend to be very disorganized. -- Renegade
Your Answers: 1+ 28+
A1 i might be jumping to a conclusion, but have you ever considered that you might be intp. intp and esfj are conflicting types. you also said you tend to be disorganized. -- Anonymous
A2 I'm not sure if this directly answers your question, but my supervisor at my last full time job was an ESFJ/female. At first we accommodated each other's differences but after a few years the relationship turned into a bitter personality conflict. She is a very concrete thinker - and bossy - and I do not place much value on those qualities as an INTJ. ESFJs are not easily able to see the big picture and INTJs can very well become impatient with their pace and thinking style. Socionics is useful and a valid way to look at the world but factors other than psychological preferences can and should determine who you will marry and spend the rest of your life with. (This sounds preachy, I apologize!) -- econdude
A3 I am almost certain I am an INTj....the profile fits me perfectly... the INTp profile just doesn't fit and a lot of things in the INTj uncovered profile where right on.... INTjs are very disorganized when it comes to daily life, which is the problem basis here. -- Renegade
A4 Not everyone who's neat and perfect is ESFj and not every ESFj is neat and perfect. -- Dr. Zoidberg
A5 He's tested as an ESFj ... looks like and ESFj ... and the description fits him perfectly -- Renegade
A6 ESFJ can be difficult to get along if they consider themselves to be your superior and therefore know everything better than you. However if you are able to earn their respect(which might be difficult as a child due to theri traditional view points) the relationship can be better, but it is i think never very satisfying muttually. -- another INTJ with a mother as ESFJ!
A7 I do not believe that duals understand one another; they simply do not tread in each other's pasture. Being paired with your dual is powerful when both are working towards common goals that require a balanced approach - like the raising of a child. However if there are no common objectives, the importance of a dual partner fades quickly. In those other cases, you may feel more at ease with someone who understands you, like two intuitives for example. I think that duals make the best partners but not necessarily the best companions. The best mate in one's later years may no longer be your dual, and the best parent for you may not be your dual. In these cases, one may need more understanding than anything else. -- I/O
A8 INTJs tend not to follow conventions simply because everyone else does, ESFJs value tradition and social mores, and if one refuses to see the viewpoint of the other, problems may arise. Both sides have to have some minimum level of love and respect, enough so that they are willing to complement one another without judgement-if you don't see the value of working on maintaining communication (and when you can only see the disparaties between your strong points and the weak points of your dual) communication will probably break down quickly. Both sides have to be willing to come to the table and listen to what the other has to say. -- Anonymous
A9 I think of INTJ as a strategy master and ESFJ as a tactical master. So it could be a great combo to run a business or manage a war. But I don't see them becoming soulmates. -- Anonymous
A10 @A9: ESFj's tactical masters? That's utterly ridicilous. -- Anonymous
A11 A10 - tactical masters at working with people. Unfortunately you will run across an ESFj who doesn't behave him or her self and loves to manipulate people (Bill Clinton, my former supervisor) and it results in people feeling hurt and ruined lives and careers. -- econdude
A12 I completely agree with the viewpoint of A7 and from what I've seen, the relationship mechanics in life reflect more of the MBTI compatibility than the socionics. Being an INTJ myself in both socionics and MBTI, I've found much more of an "ellation" with ENTP's and ENFP's than ESFJ's. Mainly this is due to my intellectual high-maintenance and the ability for ENTP's and ENFP's to connect with me (N's), being different enough to where we balance each other out, and typically we have similar interests and hobbies in life. I get along great with ESFJ's but I usually find the relationship lacking the substance I crave. I've found that relationships are more about finding a best friend and best friends typically share interests, hobbies, and interpret the world in similar ways. It just seems like there's a deep canyon between the S and N world that's usually hard to cross. -- Anonymous
A13 A11, I think that ESFP's and ESTP's are more the tactical masters with people. Bill Clinton was not an ESFJ but rather and ESFP or ESTP. -- Anonymous
A14 hey, let me jump in (again without caring to read the counter-responses to u). it is very likely that TYPEs produce duals as children, or atleast 'same quadra' children. i won't argue that u got types wrong..(typing ur father)...but factor in another process of thought, as u an INTJ, that might be easy to do. in addition to socionics, enter into mind that there is a prevading 'father to child or to son (more son, for that psychological program is different)' and a 'teenage mentology'. the father to son program, i am very empathtic with. A father tries to embue his son with things he thinks necassary to live life with...as ur father has your 'dual mentology' he might find himself inferior in the strength traits (intellectual capacity) to yourself, and as such this 'natural fathers program' struggles to project itself from him (remember duals are the emotional yin to your intellectual yang...i hope u know that theory basis). so don't depend on this situation changing...u change...grant yourself the flexibility to forfeit, and always try and take-away from any situation the necassary 'father fodder'. my father was a ESTJ and i a INTP,...same quadra, so with his 'father imparitive'..he would overwhelm me with his competence...which for a ESTJ is not weak on the 'intellectual dilegence' side (so i had no escape or arrogance like yours). However, the great advantage of having a same QUADra parent is the 'life style focus' they train and give to a child. it is worth it's weight in gold, and in a survival orientated world, if u do not take and become stronger...you may very well end on lossing out completely -- @sirac
A15 A11 - I think ESTps and to some extent ESFps look at people like pieces on a chess board to be moved around. ESFjs will rub up to you until you're putty in their hands and THEN use you for their own purposes. When I was younger I was very frustrated at the fact that a lot of classmates I knew could manipulate people like puppets on a string and when I attempted the same tactics I got #@$%! thrown in my face. Also missing from the discussion are ESTjs, would you seriously disagree that (some) ESTjs don't try different tactics in an attempt to control people? -- econdude
A16 @A14. INTp and ESTj aren't in the same quadra. -- INTp
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A17 I liked A10's response. -- Anonymous
A18 I don't know about the relationship between parents/children, but as a an INTj - trust me - an ESFj is a perfect match. My wife is an ESFj, and as long as you maintain similar goals it is just amazing. Growing up as INTj I never imagined life could be so good... -- Anonymous
A19 OK - I'm an INTJ and my ex husband was an ESFJ. We were like oil and water...ok for a minute, but separated shortly thereafter. We fought quite literally day and night. Sometimes, he decided we hadn't had an argument in a while (2 days), so he'd start one. It was so bad, that when we were tested, our marriage therapist said, oh boy, this isn't good...how are you too still together? This is a really odd pair. I am currently with either and INTP or another INTJ (he looks and smells like an INTJ, but he hasn't been tested yet) and we are happy as clams. Two INTJs? Can it work? So far so good... -- Anonymous
A20 A19 - sorry to hear about your problems with the ESFj. It really tests the theory when we see so many posts that have duals who do not seem to interact well, and the INTj-ESFj dual seems to surface the most often in that regard. I was thinking about that lately and I wonder, should intertype relations be considered in the context of the relationship? How about me (INTj) with an ESFj woman with similar interests and background - not easy to find, despite all of the ESFj women out there - and then me trying to pair up with an ESFj with a very different background and lifestyle or an ESFj from a different country? I think part of the frustration with intertype relations is that people usually want to get along and then our different type filters present obstacles to getting along. Frustrating! -- econdude
A21 Econdude, you're not an INTj, stop fooling yourself and others! -- Anonymous
A22 Yes, econdude, you ignorant ass, desist this farcical charade. What do you stand to gain through gaudily masquerading about in such a manner? Do you simply enjoy the ego-bolstering comfort your oh so lofty and exalted status as an "INTj" confers to you? You're a liar. You're a hack, a fraud, a mendacious charlatan. ADMIT IT!! -- official statement from the international intj confederation
A23 I notice that A19 is using the MBTI style acronyms with the capitalised final letter, rather than the Socionics style with the lower-case final letter. Given that and her description of her relationship with an ESFj, I suspect that she's fallen victim to the MBTI J/P problem, and is in fact an INTp, making her and her ex-husband a Conflicting pair rather than a Dual pair. The J/P identification problem is, I suspect, the real reason we hear so often about problems with supposed INTj-ESFj duals, as econdude pointed out in A20. Duality does not guarantee a perfect relationship, but I highly doubt it would result in disaster on the level described in A19. -- Krig (INTj)
A24 A21 and A22 - you're lucky I think both of your posts are funny. WTF? Why would anyone care if I'm an INTj or not? -- econdude
A25 Are you stupid or what? You make a point about being an INTj in every post sometimes even stressing it out, yet you don't want anyone to care about it? You're practically asked for it. -- Anonymous
A26 To make it even more complicated, I don't think econdude is an INTj, IMO he's an INTp -- Anonymous
A27 A25 - you're taking this way too seriously! Who cares, it's a message board (although it's my favorite on the web), not a bunch of crusty academics trying to intellectually one-up each other in the ivory tower. -- econdude
*Please note that the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of socionics.com*
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