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Rationality vs. Irrationality (J vs. P)
by Sergei Ganin

The Judging - Perceiving scale is probably the most difficult to identify. In order to better understand this scale one must first comprehend the fundamental differences between rational and irrational behaviour.

Rational behaviour

Rational behaviour is common practice for Judging types, ...
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Your Comments: 1+ 21+
C1 Nice (and true) animations -- Ezis
C2 At first glance, I thought that this article doesn't make sense. I mean, how can an INTP be irrational? Only later did I realize that there is a fine difference between what is rational and what is logical. And yeah, the difference between Juding and Perceiving types _really_ causes a great deal of friction especially in intimate relationships. -- simoncpu
C3 I see this all the time in husband and wife teams, with the J doing all the nagging at the P and most of the work. They become the parent and the P becomes the child. But the Js really need to chill out because their behaviour won't encourage the P to do any more or do stuff faster and it's the J who will have the heart attack or stroke! I'm a lazy P type, but we have something to teach this overly frenetic society. -- RubyENFP
C4 the one falls like water in it's ultimate work form, and the other with a rod. guess the riddle, who is who. but even C3 estimate can be wrong if the P seizes-up, so lets try in the unseen art, till we are like water approaching situations -- Anonymous
C5 Interesting pattern, but an IJ is likely to seem like their EP counterpart when "extraverting" and vice versa. Hence, IJs will be strict and silent but may "unleash" moments of extreme (though controlled) volatility. ISxj tempers can be merciless (when the fuse finally runs out). INxjs don't lack them either, although the norm for IJs is (at least apparent) self-control. ... IPs similarly, in their momentary flairings will seem like EJs. This is possibly why IPs find their flair-ups taxing, as they must use the "creative" function and other extraverted functions at the forefront ... while usually when in annoyance, IPs behave characteristically like introverts. ... Sustained "flair-ups" naturally suit extroverts best. -- Anonymous
C6 Perhaps calling perceiving types "nonrationals" could allow us to sidestep the pitfall of labeling half the human population with the somewhat negative term "irrational." *-*-* Also, I'm curious as to why having one of the 4 "rational" elements as a leading function causes individuals to be (generally) more deliberate and organized. -- JRiddy
C7 i am an ENFP in medical school so obviously i'm surrounded by Js. it really is a huge source of discomfort. i am not sure how to handle it really (which is strange because i can normally feel out situations). i have been thinking about doing things that are very experimental in medicine to free myself from that way of thinking. would it be easier to adapt? -- Anonymous
C8 I am surrounded by Js too >.< because i am in the so-called "best class" where everyone is hardworking and organized. Frustrating... -- entp
C9 I think it would be best to think in terms of Condemning/Not-Condemning or perhaps, Condemning/Accepting. I believe it has to do with censorship of the fundamental input of the facts, or senses. It would be the most important factor. The romantic pair must concord on this. (Errors and omissions excepted) -- mlh
C10 C3 - I disagree. My spouse is J and i am P, and i find that although he does do the nagging, he is less willing to carry out any chores, responsibilities i.e. paying bills etc or see them through whereas i will without thinking twice about it. When something requires seeing to ( and i am not necessarily talking housework here it can take ages to explain how to do it and why it has to be done. And if it is not done imediately he will need constant reminding and pushing. I feel all this fits into the J persona as things such as chores and resposibilities in the house are constantly changing, especially when you have children you are often switching from one attitude to another, one room to another and this i believe contains a high irrationality factor as plans are often changing and as written, this is irritating for J types and they cope badly as a result. Would this mean they make worse parents than P type? ( throwing a spanner in for fun:) -- INTP
C11 Perception is a subjective factor whereas 'judging' implies some objective indicies that can be comprehended by both ]the spouses , say]. So - then it means that an assertion or a subduing of the other by one who can mostly only perceive things and not judge them is a very unjust situation.. and a mental torture for the J type ... whpo knows that his/her stand is nearer the Truth or reality... Such interactions are futile as regards any good outcome as in the interest of the children even...... -- vedapushpa
C12 This topic is a source of unending confusion for me. Having studied both socionics and the M-B typologies, it seems to me that socionics' use of J/P (or j/p if you like) designation for introverts such as myself is ambiguous. (For extraverts the four-letter designation is identical regardless of case for the final letter.) It is said that -j denotes rationals, those whose lead function is T or F, while -p denotes irrationals those whose lead function is S or N. For my case, I have a definite preference for structure and closure, which according Myers-Briggs makes me ITJ, i.e. I exhibit , which by extension means that I am an irrational type since I am an introvert. However the Socionics Type Assistant consistently designates me as INTj, meaning that according to it I am a rational type whose lead function is , as far as I can tell for the same reason that Myers-Briggs designates me as INTJ - I like closure. Where's the disconnect? -- Anonymous
C13 Don't matter, just don't bite it. -- istp
C14 Liking closure is a product of a dominant J function, expressed through secondary P functions. By the same powers of extension, this means INTj is a good candidate. What kind of careers are you interested in? -- Anonymous
C15 I don't like this. Can someone explain why is irrational (by this definition) then? One profile of the SLE quotes "One should not avoid difficulties! One needs to learn how to overcome them." SLEs are supposed to be very end justified. -- Needs clarity
C16 I think this idea is based on a common behavior of the internal perception. What really goes on is that Ps are dependent on their state of mind and body, so there is a likely behavior to prioritize mind and body over external obstacles which requires action, thus to either avoid obstacles or not. I don't think primary users will match your diagram. I think obstacles are met because they want to meet them. Ps don't necessarily "avoid" obstacles. A better way to put it is that they depend on their instinct to avoid or not avoid. Another thing your diagram doesn't note is that TJs won't be so consistent on emotional obstacles (thus avoid) and FJs with logical obstacles. So this diagram in my opinion is just too subjective to be a justifiable theory. And its not really the point of J and P -- same person as C15
C17 My experience teaches me, that the j-p scale only works if you have been knowing a person for a long time. Everyone must learn to use all of the eight functions from time to time. So it is not unusual that p-types learn to act according to a rational function if their profession forces them to do so. Working in a warehouse is a good example. In a warehouse you have to deal with lots of information, what´s primarily a matter of p-functions, but the high standards of logistics in such a complex system where lots of goods are stored and must be ordered in a way that they can be taken out most quickly forces p-types to use one of the j-functions frequently. The p-type must learn to keep a certain order in his head to not throw everything into the same corner, and must make lists of the stored goods etc.. The p-type will become more and more comfortable in using Te for example until it seems to be his or her area of most confidence. But if you know the person as a friend, you can observe him be very different in private, where he or she leaves everything where it is in the moment not caring about order, just because it is not neccessary to him in private to use a j-function. The person falls back to his or her "standard configuration". What I wrote is not theory but observation. I know several persons being highly systematic in their job, but being chaotic in their private life. -- Anonymous
C18 I can't help but make the comparison to driving. Ps will see the stopped car blocking the lane well ahead of time, while Js wind up slamming on the brakes at the last second before trying to change lanes. Very much like the animation (well done!) -- Brian
C19 More like J types have armour plating on front for ramming speed -- Anonymous
C20 interesting animation. i certainly don't think i (as a P) totally avoid obstacles though! anyway, i also think J and P can work very well together in relationships if they have other similarities and similar goals and visions. they can balance one another out. my J keeps me grounded and i help my J be more comfortable with change. -- fishie
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